Shooting at 11th and Park Road, NW Monday Night. Reader Also Raises a Larger Issue


I’ve received a number of emails about this incident. What will follow is a piecing together of various emails. For those expecting a Washington Post type report, please skip this post. Thanks.

I hear around 11pm at the corner of 11th and Park a Latino worker from a nearby establishment was waiting for the bus and was accosted by two men demanding money. I’m told he had either very little money or tried to fight off the assailants. I’m told the assailants shot the victim in the leg and that he is in the hospital and awaiting surgery or recovering. However another resident said they heard the shots (readers report hearing 2) closer to 1:45am and 5 police cars and an ambulance responded pretty quickly. Another reader reports that there is speculation that the man was specifically targeted because he was Latino. I’m told that many Latinos are targeted for robbery in Columbia Heights because the perpetrators may believe that they are carrying cash and due to immigration issues the victims may be less likely to contact the police.

If this is indeed the case, how do you think it can/should be remedied. Should there be some sort of amnesty for victims reporting crimes? Do you think there should be more police patrols along 11th and 14th Streets, NW around the time bars and restaurants close?

82 Comment

  • This post just makes me so angry. The immigrant workers work so damn hard, and do the most labor intensive work. Some endure great hardship so that they can send some money back to home.
    Yet they are targets of robbery.
    I am just so livid.

  • now that you are doing this as a career why not pursue the actual facts? you have plenty of time to contact mpd or try to find witnesses.

  • There is ‘amnesty’ for victims of crimes. MPD & DCFD/EMS are prohibited by their general orders from even ASKING a victim or patient’s immigration status. The larger problem may be that immigrants are having a harder time obtaining driver’s licenses and therefore opening bank accounts and subsequently may keep more cash onhand.

  • Prince Of Petworth

    It’s a good question. Because the police often don’t give out facts during an active investigation and I often don’t get responses from official channels. When 6 different people email me about the same incident I know something went down. One of the nice things about the PoP community is that they often fill in the gaps. I am not a newspaper nor I plan on becoming one. I believe this incident occurred (and I use my own vetting process) and am happy to share that with the community.

  • An incident like this certainly did occur – Here’s the MPD Alert page:

    ———quoted text——–
    Police Alert-
    Adult male shot in the leg conscious and breathing_0142_3410 11th Street NW_Lookout for 2 B/M (1) B/M 5’9″ black clothing, and a black mask (2) 6 ft, black clothing, and black mask armed with gun DO NOT TAKE ACTION CALL 911 W/EVENT #i20090542232
    Sent on: 09/29 01:57
    Sent by DC Police Alert to e-mail, pagers, cell phones….powered by Cooper Notification RSAN

  • Prince Of Petworth

    Thanks Ontarioroader. Can you send me the link for that MPD Alert page? Thanks again.

  • You’re welcome – here’s the link:

  • Having a Latino father who was jumped years ago and did not want to report it — it wasn’t about his immigration status (he is a legal resident) it was more about not thinking the police would/could do anything about it. The other day, he came to visit with his friend who was attacked a few days before and had lost half of his teeth. The attack occurred early morning, similar to other attacks they know of.

  • POP, you are correct, I can confirm that there is a very real trend of muggings and shootings and beatings targeted on working class Latinos. When they are actually killed, the families often can’t raise enough money to ship the body home for the funeral in the home country. Collections are usually started to try to get the body home. Some countries, a few countries offer very cheap insurance for workers abroad and will cover most of the expenses if the families have the insurance. Organizations that provide assistance to the Latino community get calls on a very frequent basis from the families and friends of murdered immigrants asking for help in getting bodies home. It’s a horrible problem in DC. It’s even starting to be referred to in the community as the “black on brown” violence issue. It’s so sad. Two marginalized groups, one preying on the other.

  • i would expect to get mugged in columbia heights at 1:45AM. nothing you can do about that.

  • I don’t think this is a new trend. Latinos were getting mugged in Mount Pleasant when I lived there in ’95, and I recall reading about similar incidents when I lived on Capitol Hill in ’89. Immigrants have always been a target for criminals, both because of their reluctance to report crimes for fear of deportation as well as a belief they carry large amounts of cash.

  • North of Columbia Heights there have been robberies of Hispanic contractor work crews.

    From a neighborhood listserv:

    From: [email protected] com
    To: [email protected] com
    Cc: Lanier, Cathy (MPD); Gilmore, Linda (MPD); Groomes, Diane (MPD)
    Sent: Wed Sep 23 09:06:06 2009
    Subject: [MPD-4D] Crestwood and Shepard Robberies

    On Monday September 21, 2009 at approximately 5:30 pm two complainants were performing landscaping services in the 4200 block of Argyle Terrance. One of the complainants was working on the sidewalk area, when he noticed two suspects walking towards him. They suspects approached the complainant produced a gun and made demands for his money and told to get on the ground. At which time, complainant two was working in the front yard suspect pointed gun at him and made demands. Both complainants complied..

    On Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at approximately 1:30 pm, four complainants were doing renovations and building code inspection on a location in the 7300 block of 14th street. The complainants were talking on sidewalk about the building codes when they were approached by two suspects whom pointed a gun and demanded their money complainant complied. At which time, the suspect went to the other two complainants that was sitting on the porch and demanded their money, again complainants complied. No Injuries to complainants SUSPECTS 4-5 b/m, WHITE T-SHIRT, BLUE JEANS WITH DREAD LOCKS AGE RANGE BETWEEN 18-19 yrs.

    Something pretty similar occurred at 15th and Varnum on 9/29 – two guys with dreadlocks robbed Hispanic workers in the street around 7:45 AM, with a gun.

    Cuidate, todos.

  • One of the problems mentioned earlier is that a number of my Latino neighbors don’t report crimes because they say the dispatchers are especially rude when they have problems with accents. I wish some of the MPD officers were not so low class and defensive/dismissive with Latinos. I’ve witnessed them get defensive/dismissive when they have trouble understanding someone or when the person talking didn’t know what information to communicate when you’re reporting criminal activity.

    Sure we can ask the latino community be be given info. about how to interact with the cops, but it seems it would be a hell of a lot easier to ask out police “public servants” to be more tolerant and put more effort into interacting with our latino neighbors…

  • I also remember a rash of recent robberies at bus stops in the early morning (5-6am). A lot of these folks are hard working Latino immigrants going to work. It burns me up that worthless thugs violently are robbing them and then going back to their pad to crash and sleep all day.

    I wish the police would conduct undercover robbery stings since most of the robberies (not withstanding the examples above) are committed between midnight and 4am. Having the police have some undercover officers who pose as yuppies coming home from the bars could get these robbers off the streets. I guess they could also pose as latinos getting off work late at night.

  • This is terrible. I live near 11th and Park and have never felt unsafe and I would like to think that anyone trying to live their lives to do so in the same way. Having the new bar coming in at 11th and Park could produce more witnesses, or possibly more victims when they go home at night, although I haven’t heard of many people having issues after leaving Wonderland. There is a police station two blocks away and I feel that I always see police cars going to-and-from and that area is usually well traveled. I do notice that after around 9:30 pm on weeknights the area kind of dies and it is a little eerie while walking back from the metro, so maybe late-night patrol could be needed.

  • So what can we do about it? How can we express solidarity with all of our neighbors and let the police know that we want everyone – regardless of immigration status or accent – protected and served?

  • This is sad.

    You know how we solve this? We stop giving out hand-outs. People who work hard should be allowed to stay and people who are a drain on the system should either find a way to pay or relocate.

    If they have to work 3 jobs to pay rent, all the better. Then there’s less time for them to mug people who actually work for a living.

  • @Anon 8:33 – you’re missing a key concept here: They mug people so they don’t have to work 3 jobs.

  • @anon Is it really a handout if they stick a gun in your face and demand it? I’m not sure I see the connections between handouts and robbers. Robbers will rob whether handouts exist or not.

  • I live at 11th and Park. The shooting happened around 1:45am, not 11pm. Two shots fired – one warning shot in the air, and one to the leg. This is according to a detective who I spoke to at the scene when I went outside to see what was going on.

  • This Latino-targetted crime is nothing new and was something discussed at the first PSA meeting I went to, probably 1995. The police have no ideas, trust me, because it’s now 14 years later.

  • I believe there is a Gay & Lesbian Liaison police unit at Dupont circle. Maybe if there was a Latino equivalent in our area this would help at least with the reportings.

  • The worst part, other than the immediate violence to the victims and their families, is that the thing can easily devolve into a racial discussion or an “us versus them” discussion, when what really needs to happen is that all of the folks who are being economically exploited, black, brown, white and whatever else, should be working together to improve their lives and change the barriers that work against them. Instead, stuff like this just creates more division along false lines.

    Meanwhile, to help immediately, bars and restaurants and other establishments with late shifts should be establishing plans to keep their workers safe. They should be paying for taxis, establishing ride shares, buddy-systems for bus stops and walking home. The same kind of shit a lot of restaurants sometimes do for their young, female waitresses, but for whatever reason don’t extend to their dishwashers and line cooks.

  • I should have looked before posting as there is one:

  • my wife’s family is (legally) from latin america so from my experience most latino immigrants operate on cash rather than credit card debt, so yes they do tend to carry a lot of cash. Also yes they are unlikely to go to the police or even to the hospital unless they the injury is very serious. For example my wife’s parents will fly to Honduras to get their dental / medical services (even though they have State HMO health insurance) because not only does it cost a tiny faction what it does in the US, but the medical services can be better than what you get in the US in some cases. The distrust of police, hospitals, etc. stems both from the way they treat Latinos, obviously… for example my wife’s father was accused by the police last year that he caused a car accident even though there was video footage showing the (wealthier, white) other driver was clearly at fault… but this just scratches the surface. It’s not just the police or hospitals, it’s MOST institutions and especially conservative right-wingers… I’m constantly having to look out for them. I really had no idea how bad it is until I started acting as a mediator for them.

  • Assuming they were actually 4-5 18+, it would be interesting to know how many of the perps have been in and out of the DC system for gun violence and robbery while they were children. It’s a pretty effective training ground we have here isn’t it, jeeze.

    “Safe Routes Home Program”. DC police recruits asked to position themselves in key locations to volunteer to walk folks home, could include some orange hat volunteers as well to get the police mingling more directly with the folks in the community. No one should be scared to walk home after work.

  • (Nationwide) gun control now.

  • ^ that was funny the first 20 times you posted it.

  • Bring back the 11th Street beat officer! Despite living two blocks from a police substation, I can barely recall, since that officer was removed, seeing any police presence visible around the area. It would be great to see an officer or two walking a beat in the evenings, up and down 11th and perhaps a few other area streets.

  • Black males committing crimes that are racially motivated? NO WAY I only thought white folk had racial biases.

    Yes now someone please write something to the extent of stop race baiting.

  • If only there were a MPD latino liaison unit. Yeah that would help. Maybe they could put it, I dont know somewhere near 18th and Columbia?

  • PoP, there is in fact an “amnesty” type program for victims of violent crime. It is called the U Visa. The victim must suffer severe emotional or physical trauma (I would hope getting shot would count), must have information about the suspects, and must be willing to aid in the investigation.

    The US can give out 10,000 of these per year, though the number of U Visas actually given out in a single year is far lower (due to lack of knowledge about its availability, mistrust between the undocumented and police departments, etc.). This type of visa started back in 2000 and was intended to be an important tool for law enforcement agencies.

  • Anonymous 10:13 — STOP RACE BAITING

  • There is a MPD latino liaison unit. However, for political reasons, it doesn’t get much resources and is constantly under threat of being diminished or combined with other units to its detriment.

  • Ontarioroader, I’ve only posted that about 8 times now. And I am not trying to be funny. Pro-gun folks are funny. 😀

  • Jimmy: The U visa is rarely (if ever) used for victims of “street crime.” The U visa is most commonly used by federal law enforcement in major drug smuggling and human trafficking investigations. Only a handful of them (in the dozens) are ever issued in any given year.

  • Latino robberies were a big issue out in VA and the police did a coordinated campaign on it, but I don’t know the results. Much of the VA latino population went away with the building bust, so maybe its less of an issue. In DC, we don’t do much on robberies in general, unless rich white folks are robbed, so the latino-specific issue is moot. I am sure the robbers have been in and out of juvie and prison since roughly the age of 10, I sincerely start they got their start on this particular robbery. Again, blame Mendelson for keeping our laws lax, and vote him out next year. (not a perfect solution but all else seems moot other than my other standby: move to MD or VA!)

    Also, its weird if it happened at 1:45am, as the last bus goes through there at 12:30 or so, no?

  • If this currently hospitalized gentleman is found to be an illegal, it is the duty of Homeland Security to deport him as soon as possible. I hope he is shipped out quickly, for no doubt he has no insurance and the tax payer is currently paying for his surgery.

  • Perhaps we should ship Normantown out of the country. He seems to be far more a drain on society than a worker getting shot.

  • The gentleman is from an established family of restaurant employees and is here legally, having lived and worked in DC for the past 10 years or so, notably at 2 Amy’s. You should refrain from eating pizza (or eating in restaurants for that matter) and eliminate the doubt of whether your money is enabling foreigners.

  • Also, on the above point that there should be undercover operations to arrest these guys, undercover work is amusing in DC. Its very rare, and apparently has to be approved by a slew of folks, and legally is viewed as unreasonable search and seizure by DC courts if all approval is not received and various procedures followed. Not that its impossible, but its harder and rare, except for drug crimes that involve federal agencies (DEA etc), who get to bypass the approvals. On the flip side, officers don’t like to do undercover work on street robberies because, amusingly, its risky for them to be out alone late at night. This info from various chats with officers and such, and I have no idea how to verify it.

  • why the hostility towards normantown? should illegal immigrants not be deported?

  • Anonymous 12:01 – Because “Normantown” thinks that an illegal alien should be deported, he (Normantown) is a “drain on society?” Way to come to a logical conclusion!

  • Immigrants should not be “illegal”.

  • An individual’s immigration status is a matter between him and the federal government. I would prefer the the police be out there cracking down on street crime and defending victims from perpetrators rather than devoting their resources to figuring out whether someone’s paperwork is in order. I don’t expect hospitals and police officers to check if you have any outstanding problems with the IRS every time to head to the emergency room after getting mugged, either. We have separate agencies to deal with those things. Complain to DHS if they can’t do a good enough job cracking down on people without the right visa status. Don’t demand that the local police department bother themselves with this.

  • It is kind of sad if the first thing that comes to someone’s mind after hearing someone else is shot is “Awesome, if this guy turns out to be illegal, we can deport him!”

    Or, the guy is just a troll, and in that case- you got me dude! You got me good!

  • If we deported everyone, then no one could get shot. Brilliant.

  • normantown,

    It’s not the job of a hospital to ask a patient’s immigration status. Besides what would the effect of such a policy be? Fewer immigrants seeking treatment for infectious and communicable diseases, thereby potentially increasing healthcare costs in the long run.

  • All of us, unless you are 100% American Indian, are to some extent illegal immigrants. How has everyone forgotten to whom the US really ‘belongs’?

    It’s really horrible that as soon as someone is classified at Latino, there are a slew of ignorant people who assume that he or she must be here ‘illegally’.

  • I am not a proponent of illegal immigration and really not a major proponent of large amounts of immigration at all. I believe in H1B visas, but that’s about it. I’d rather spend the money training US citizens to be engineers than hire engineers from Russia but at least we’re importing engineers. Cheap un-unionized labor does not increase business efficiency in the long-term. Also, just like we were told by the US State Department to study up on and follow local customs when going overseas, I wish, for once that the immigrants would learn to follow our laws and customs when moving here. If Ugly Americanism is real, what do you call the mom who holds her hand up as she jaywalks two kids across a busy street? I talked with a woman at a community police meeting who screamed and complained in Spanish about that and the police were finally like, what you’re doing is not legal- cross between the white lines- at which point… he we all know a frustrated “Que Lastima” when we hear it.

    But then again, I know several people proud to be Americans now who always ask me to speak English with them instead of Spanish, etc.

    the MPD dispatchers ARE low class. but they’re just as low class to white people as they are to Latins. I had one tell me over and over again that there was no traffic circle at the intersection of 16th St and Massachusetts Ave NW. Just wouldn’t let me file the “guy with no pants” report.

  • Well, I guess this conversation was inevitably going to become an immigration debate.

    My two cents: If the governments of nations are going to impose free trade agreements on their people, like the governments of Mexico and the U.S. did with NAFTA, they need to expect and suffer the consequences. It was completely foreseeable that NAFTA would kill Mexico’s home grown economy, forcing millions of people out of work, out of food, out of any way to make a real living at home. It was completely foreseeable that those folks would move north, at all costs, to make a living. You can’t have it both ways, you either allow a country to make its own way, or you deal with its people moving to yours to make their own way when you strangle them.

    It’s like telling someone they can live in their house, but with no $ to pay for food or electricity or water, but if they move into an empty house one neighborhood over, they are “illegal” and have to be deported back to the old house. Lose-lose situation.

  • assumptions run rampant on this blog…latinos are uneducated illegals, blacks are poor thugs, whites are rich racists… blah blah blah. i dont see why it is so offensive to expect hospitals and police officers to confirm someones status, nor do i see why that would be so difficult. law abiding citizens have to register their vehicles, pets, and guns, they have to get permits to drive those vehicles or do construction on their homes, they have to provide proof of residence to get parking permits to park outside of those homes, etc. where is the offense exactly?

  • So what can we do about it?

    Commissions for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice:

  • Notanamericanindian – Since there was no united “Indian” nation when the first European settlers arrived, there were no laws preventing the Europeans from being here. So, no, my ancestors weren’t illegal aliens upon arriving in Virginia in 1622, or Maryland in 1660. We are a nation of laws – some popular and right, others unpopular and questionable (like, why can’t I marry a guy if I want to?) – so if we as a country have said that you have to go through certain legal channels to become a resident and then citizen of the United States, then you are breaking the law, and thus an “illegal alien” (as opposed to being a legal immigrant), if you don’t follow those rules. It’s really a simple idea.

  • Neener – just to clarify one thing; MPD does not have dispatchers. 911 call-taking and dispatching is done by the Office of Unified Communications. Yes, they are horribly trained, poorly paid, and really the bottom of the barrel in terms of DC employees. It also doesn’t help that OUC is headed by someone with absolutely no public safety experience whatsoever.

  • Johnnyreb gets the award for the dumbest legal argument I’ve ever heard.

  • Neener,

    The myth that immigrants refuse to learn English is just that — a myth. A substantial majority of immigrants living in the U.S. speak English at least moderately well. And the numbers only go up in subsequent generations. And even higher percentages acknowledge that learning English is key to finding good jobs and achieving success in this country. That people like you feel threatened by the fact that many immigrants choose to speak their native tounge amongst themeselves is your problem. As for your jaywalking example, if you’re going to attribute this woman “lawlessness” to her immigrant status, what do you attribute as the reason for the countless other jaywalkers of all stripes that you encounter in any busy street in downtown DC?

  • I had an awesome latin contractor’s helper shot in CH 4 years ago for the same issues: They said they were targeted by black youth who expected latins carried cash and wouldn’t report.

  • DCDude, my second paragraph details people I know exactly like you state. I would NEVER allow myself to be critical of Ugly-Immigrationism without detailing people I know who want to change when they come here. No escribio para mi.

  • if someone is half Puerto Rican and half Irish, are they white or Latino?

  • you can be white and latino. See, e.g., Fidel Castro.

  • Do elaborate, Pennywise; I ain’t no law-talkin’ man. One is either here legally (born here; got a green card, etc.), or one is here illegally (crossed the border; over-stayed a visa, etc.). What am I misunderstanding? If you are foreign-born and living in the United States, then the government classifies you as an immigrant or a resident alien.

  • JohnnyReb,

    I think Pennywise is referring to your argument that since there was no united Indian nation, there were no laws preventing whites from settling here. This is just plain wrong. Tribal sovereignty in the United States is founded on the principle that tribes are governmental entities separate and distinct from the Unites States, preexisting the United States. This notion defines the “government to government” relationship that the US holds with the various American Indian tribes to this very day.

  • Voice of Reason, why wouldn’t we want to marginalize criminals? The idea that poverty creates crime is bunk. The continued historic drop in crime while the poverty rate continues to skyrocket has totally discredited this theory. You equating violent criminals to immigrants who seek work is mind-boggling. Suggesting that crime is a side-effect of being poor and black is simply dumb. Ever heard of Bernie Madoff?

  • Hospitals have an obligation to serve sick and injured people, no matter their status. Their duty is to people no matter their political beliefs, country of origin, hygiene or anything else. For one, I want everyone with swine flu, whether a recent immigrant or the offspring of immigrants (like Johnny Reb here) to go to the hospital. Its a public health issue. If immigrants face deportation, they won’t go, and we all suffer.

    Same goes for police officers. Its harder for them to do their job if people don’t feel comfortable talking to them for fear of deportation. I want violent criminals caught and I want everyone to help, including immigrants. Let the Feds (and Virginians) try to enforce immigration laws. We have other more pressing problems to deal with. Frankly, I have only benefited from the many good-hard working immigrants. The ones I’ve worked with have been reliable and genuinely nice people.

    Another problem for many Non-English speaking victims of crime (not to say that this victim is non-english speaking) is that their ability to testify at trial is severely hampered. One jury I served on here in DC, the defense attorney was able to use the victim’s confused responses to questions (posed in english during pretrial discovery), failure to cooperate with police, and other misunderstandings to successfully attack the victims credibility. Also, it was harder for him to make his case through an unemotional, matter of fact, court translator. Swayed many on the jury that there might be something amiss in the testimony, so the perp wasn’t convicted.

  • JohnnyReb,

    I can’t believe I’m taking your bait, but how in he world would you justify as “legal” your ancestors being in Maryland/Virginia in the early 17th century? We all know the English basically came here and took what they wanted and justified it with the LAW OF THE JUNGLE (LOTJ). The LOTJ states if you are stronger than some one else, you can take their stuff – period!

    Kinda ironic you use this argument since this is the same LOTJ that the punks who rob us use! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

  • Regarding Hospitals – if we want them to do the work of the feral immigration services, why not the IRS too???? Paying your taxes is central to supporting hospitals budgets, so hope you have copies of your last three years of 1040 forms stuffed in your socks if you get hot by a car!

  • voiceofreason trying to sleep better at night by proving he is a better liberal than all of us… actually a racist! ha!ha!ha!

  • Is it necessary to remind everyone that we’re talking about a member of our community who was attacked and ended up in the hospital?

  • Hola Petworth peeps. First time on this blog, since I’m new to the area.

    I actually wrote a story on this exact problem for Baltimore’s Urbanite this past June –

    And with regard to the U-visa, it is most often granted to victims of human trafficking or domestic abuse, where they can prove that they remain in danger. Folks that have been attacked at random on the street often don’t apply, and when they do, it isn’t often granted in a timely fashion.

    Just my two cents. Cool blog you’ve got here.


  • “You equating violent criminals to immigrants who seek work is mind-boggling.”

    Huh? Where did I do that?

    How does my comment make me a racist?

    Seriously, I have no idea where you are getting that from what I posted.

  • “Since there was no united “Indian” nation when the first European settlers arrived, there were no laws preventing the Europeans from being here. So, no, my ancestors weren’t illegal aliens upon arriving in Virginia in 1622, or Maryland in 1660. ”

    Brilliant! I will have to remember that. In answer to the counter-argument, the fact that the United States has recognized the sovereignty of certain American Indian tribes because their presence here predated the founding of the United States does not mean that the government has recognized that any of these tribes “owned” any part of this country at the time the United States was founded. In fact, I believe that the belief systems of most American Indians, at least at that time, did not allow for the possibility of any person “owning” land. Hence their confusion when they were herded off of land they had been occupying because the land now supposedly belonged to someone else.

  • On the topic at hand:
    There will never be any progress on these types of issues as long as they are framed in racial terms. According to the MPD crime statistics there were 238 robberies with guns in Ward 1 in the past year. During that same period of time there were 300 robberies with guns in Ward 8 and 323 in Ward 7. The black male (according to the reported description) criminals who committed this crime have undoubtedly robbed more than their share of hard working black people too. And the hard working people of Wards 7 and 8 are more likely to be victims of crime than people in any other Ward.
    We need to stop focusing on race and focusing on right and wrong.

  • Agreed Marcus. And I’d add (which you may disagree) that we need to focus on class. Poverty breeds violent crime, always has, always will.

  • I always have to laugh when I read “VoiceofReason’s” comments, in part b/c of his chosen moniker. I’m left of center on many issues, but I’m often taken aback by his emotionally driven, fringe liberal drivel. I guess it would not really stand out so much here, were it not for his ironic namesake.

    Then again, maybe I have misunderstood the name. I believe the “Prince of Petworth” selected his handle, at least somewhat, in jest. So maybe VOR’s name is consistent with such self-depreciation.

  • VOR’s 5:26 comment not withstanding. Class is more important to focus on, though we have plenty of examples of poor societies that lack the high levels of violent crime we have in ours. More specifically, poverty in close proximity to wealth breeds violent crime.

  • You people are purposely obtuse if you think the poverty=crime argument holds any empirical value anymore. Poverty, as a % of population, is at all time high. Urban poverty rates are the same as they were at the height of the 1990’s crime wave. The size of the middle class is minuscule to what it was 40 years ago. Wages for the average worker also are frozen in real buying terms at the same levels as in the 1960’s. The unemployment rate, both the reported rate and the unreported rate, is the highest in a generation. Yet crime keeps going down. Any honest criminologist will admit they have no idea why and their prior assumptions (and they were just assumptions) about poverty do not correspond with the facts. Wake up and learn a new cocktail party factoid cause this one is PLAYED OUT.

  • I’d disagree that anything I comment is “emotionally driven”. I don’t really get worked up emotionally one way or another on these issues, I just try to state the obvious. Or liberal really, I definitely don’t identify myself as a liberal. Whether it is drivel or not I guess is for the beholder.

  • Agree. VOR = not. Most of the time he’s just plain old Voice of White Guilt.

  • Anon 6:06. You wouldn’t make much of a social scientist. Putting a bunch of generalities together (esp. when I believe one key one, “Urban poverty rates are the same as they were at the height of the 1990’s crime wave” is incorrect) doesn’t make for a very strong case. As an economist and someone who likes to understand social patterns, I am aware of and happy to share (if you would so like) a substantial amount of research that suggests a strong positive correlation between poverty and crime, particularly violent crime. Does poverty = crime? No, of course it isn’t that simple. There are other contribution factors of course, some of which may not be so politically correct for this forum, but to suggest there is no relationship or to suggest that criminologist are dumbfounded about the root causes of violent crime is just ignorant.

  • Thanks to those that posted FACTS about this disturbing incident. I’m curious about what is going on in my neighborhood, whether the violence occurred between people who were already acquainted, and what the police have to say about whether this incident was gang related. I think this is important to know for my own safety and that of my neighbors.

    In case anyone is still interested in discussing what actually happened, the shooting definitely occurred right around 1:40 AM, not 11:00 PM.. I recall hearing at least 2 gunshots. The police arrived less than 5 minutes later. I heard the shooting victim speak Spanish with one of the police officers who arrived on the scene but I couldn’t tell what his immigration status was…obviously.

    I have written to Jim Graham to see if I can get more actual details about this incident and will post any new information I can get.

    In the meantime can you guys cool it with the pseudo-social science immigration policy debate stuff? There may very well be larger important issues to discuss in connection with this incident, but we can’t say what those would be until we actually know what happened.

    Thanks, and my prayers are with the victim and his family. I hope everyone stays safe.

  • the latinos i see work their butts off. i’ve never admired a group of people more. DC needs to take better care of them.

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