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Dear PoP – Warning to Women of Columbia Heights
Photo by PoPville flickr user a.w.miller
“Dear PoP,
Just a warning to women riding the metro and exiting at Columbia Heights. This evening at 10:30pm I was riding up the escalator and in front of me was a 5’5″ Hispanic male in his 20′s with no facial hair, a backpack, and a smart phone. In front of him was a woman wearing a short blue dress. Near the top of the escalator, I heard the woman exclaim “what are you doing!?” and we all quickly realized he was taking up-skirt photos of her with his phone.
Inspired by some of the recent stories on PoP of people helping out their neighbors, I chased the man for about half a block down Irving street, screaming “Stop!” (my husband was with me.) The look on his face when he realized I was chasing him was priceless. The photo-creeper was much faster than me and I lost him in the dark, but at least I gave him a really good scare. I then told a police officer I saw standing outside the CVS. So, women exiting at Columbia Heights metro: if you’re wearing a skirt, pay very close attention to who is standing behind you.”
UPDATE from the husband of the victim:
“First off, thank you to the couple that chased after the man. She immediately called 911 to report the incident and gave a similar description: Hispanic man, probably early to mid 20s, around 5’5″, short dark hair, and white t-shirt. When she turned to ask what he was doing, his eyes were bloodshot and he sort of smirked. That was all she saw besides the couple chasing him down Irving towards 13th Street.
The police responded to our house within 10 minutes of getting off the phone with 911 and immediately put out a lookout in the area for someone matching that description. Although we know it’s unlikely anything will come of the report, we definitely appreciate the help of both our neighbors and the police.”
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i'm guessing they put in some good sound buffering windows? fl ave is LOUD. 
11:06pm
^yes. The only danger at this location is being run over by a motorist from Maryland.
11:05pm
Faison's writeups make me crazy. And not in a good "I'm crazy for buying this house!" way.
The Dancing Crab's commercials have to be the worst I've ever seen. The owners saying,...
God you people are boring. Why not more chatter about their footwears?
People are weird.
So creepy. The truth is that you attract both good and bad attention if you wear something really short. It doesn’t make it right, but be prepared for headaches like this.
screw you.
+1
+100000. such BS.
Agreed!
Indeed. Creeps will be creeps and it’s no one’s fault but their creepy own.
I saw a man at Farragut North filming a woman’s pant-suited behind once. (Perhaps Andy would have advised her to go to work in a burlap sack?) Sadly I was a naive suburbanite at the time and I didn’t figure out what had been going on until a block later. Kudos to the couple for giving him a scare!
Also, be prepared to be raped if wearing tight clothing. Victims have no one to blame but themselves, right, andy?
Scumbag.
i don’t think andy meant this woman deserved that sort of disrespect due to her wardrobe… unwanted attention comes whether you’re wearing the short skirt or not. there are creepy people lurking everywhere…
overreact much?
Thats a bit extreme. I don’t approve of Andy’s wording, and believe things like this happen whether the cloathes are “racey” or not, a friend of mine had her ass pinched on the street in Adams Morgan, she was just wearing jeans. However, to attribute what Andy said to condoning rape, or blaming rape victims is just a large leap. Furthermore, the point he was trying to make, i think, is to just keep an eye out because this stuff happens late at night in a city. Doesn’t mean shouldn’t wear whatever you want and it doesn’t mean you are thusly responsible for what happens, it just means keep an eye out there be some creepy dudes walking about late night.
You need to learn how to read and think. And how to take a deep breath before putting your knee-jerk reactions in writing. You have totally misinterpreted what andy wrote.
No, this is exactly what we mean by a rape culture. The idea that wearing a short skirt means some creep is going to take pictures of you is along the same lines of she was asking for it.
It’s all the same kind of thinking.
I should be able to walk down the street wearing whatever the hell I want and people should leave me alone. Until that happens, there’s a problem.
Too bad your stance completely ignores centuries worth of cultural and societal norms and expectations for decorum in public. It also ignores the fact that there are creeps out there that will do whatever they want, regardless of if it’s legal and/or acceptable.
In other words, your stance makes yourself a perpetual victim and one crazy angry woman.
It’s not all the same kind of thinking. You are intentionally (or maybe unintentionally) mixing meanings of things (for example, attributing approval or consent to a simple statement based on personal observations), which quite frankly makes it very difficult for people like me to try to discuss subjects like this objectively.
“In other words, your stance makes yourself a perpetual victim and one crazy angry woman.”
it’s nice to have such a tidy way of dismissing women, isn’t it?
Denizen, is there some (current) cultural/societal norm I’m unaware of that women shouldn’t wear short skirts in public? If anything, I’d say (attractive) women are expected to by sexy at all times.
Additionally, the reason there are so many creeps out there who will do whatever they want is because we keep putting the onus of responsibility on the victims, not the perpetrators. Perhaps if these creeps were held accountable, not just legally, but in the larger societal discussion, there would be far fewer of them.
sad to say, that’s never going to happen. there will always be scummy men thinking with the little head
Of course we’ll never completely get rid of the problem. But I disagree that we’ll never reduce the number of men who think/act like this. If we are to reduce the number though, we are going to have to change a lot of things about the way these men and their actions are treated.
Calm down Kenyon. Just calm down.
Kenyon, It’s the same concept as if you wear a Yankees jersey to a Red Sox game… when the Yankees aren’t playing. Be prepared for someone to yell at you, with a chance that someone might kick your ass.
But it’s still not legal for them to kick your ass for wearing that jersey. I’ll never understand extreme sports fans.
This is a deeply flawed analogy. First, a Red Sox game is much more specific a location that “in public.” Secondly, someone wearing a Yankees Jersey to a Red Sox would be doing so to be purposefully antagonistic. When women wear a skirt, they generally don’t do so with the purpose of soliciting creepy leers and of having people take upskirt pictures.
Apples and oranges.
And yes, I understand that no analogy is perfect, but this one isn’t even close.
Foreigner here… Please explain this to me… Girls wear miniskirts… – what for? To attract whichever sex they’re hoping to attract, right? Or, do they wear them to make themselves feel good and attractive to themselves?
Whatever the reasoning is, be it a girl or a guy or Jesus Christ, I say, be prepared to be noticed. Now, there are people, who would try to take advantage of this, and that shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone. I’m a guy and a gay. Not unattractive, mind you, but I never act “available” in any way, because I’m not ready to face the consequences of it. I’m not saying that this incident should be disregarded, but that everyone is on display at any time nowadays, with all the baggage attached. I’m sorry, but big freaking deal – some guy took a picture of a girl’s leg… oooh, pervert!
And, just to be clear, I hope that girls continue to wear whatever they wish to wear without being harassed.
Why the anger? Andy’s right.
Ass.
Where does the poster say it was “really short?” It could have been normal work attire.
True.
This can happen even if you aren’t wearing “something really short”; you cannot assume the skirt was something racy that attracts good and bad attention.
But more importantly, you need to stop blaming the victim.
Good lord. The post says it’s a short skirt. This “stop blaming the victim crap” needs to end at some point. It’s like every feminist in the world got a memo to make sure and put words in people’s mouths about issues like this. Andy obviously isn’t blaming the victim. If this was about anything else he could say “watch out for x when doing y” and there would be no issue, but insert a women and her body into the situation and all of a sudden a segment of the population goes bananas.
No. Stop blaming the victim is exactly what we need to be saying.
I have the right to wear a short skirt without some creep sticking his hand between my legs to take pictures of my crotch. Period, end of story. No qualifiers needed.
The OP said – “women exiting at Columbia Heights metro: if you’re wearing a skirt, pay very close attention to who is standing behind you.” That’s appropriate.
Andy suggested that a short skirt (which could be anything from knee length up) is a call for attention and that this kind of harrassment is “a headache.” That’s inappropriate and blaming the victim.
i’m pretty sure andy suggested it’s a “headache” because it’s an unfortunate situation which exists in the real world, not the ideal one he and you both hope for… and it is.
actually, i believe he wrote something really short. And at no point did he say it is a call for attention, rather it calls attention. which is COMPLETELY different and 100% true. Furthermore, I’m sure no one disagrees with you about having the right to wear a short skirt without someone taking pictures between your legs.
Jane’s point isn’t that anyone outright disagrees with her. Her point is that comments like Andy’s are so prevalent in our culture. I’m sure he didn’t mean to say that the woman was in any way at fault, but by telling (potential) victims that they should simply prepare for something like this, he is putting all of the responsibility for preventing these types of incidents in the future on potentail victims and none on perpetrators. If we, as a society, start to hold perpetrators more responsible, perhaps these types of incidents will happen less and less.
He says that it is short – he didn’t say it was really short or so short as to be attention-grabbing.
I think 90% of the women in this city wear skirts that are knee-length or shorter in the summer. It isn’t exactly unusual or attention worthy.
“by telling (potential) victims that they should simply prepare for something like this, he is putting all of the responsibility for preventing these types of incidents in the future ”
are you really suggesting he is now responsible for society’s lack of empathy towards this issue just because he acknowledges the existence of the problem?
No, that is not what I’m saying at all. Please elaborate on how you inferred that from my statement because I am genuinely confused.
Always, always pull your taut when going up stairs or escalators- especially if you’re wearing something swingy.
Pulling your taut in public is not legal.
lol
That happened to me when I was wearing a knee length loose skirt. A man took a picture and when I yelled, he decided to go for it and reached up to pull down my underwear. This was at 9 am in Arlington. My fault? You’re allowed to wear what you want without having someone assault you.
what?? this is awful, did you report?
That is so awful, I’m really sorry that happened.
Who’s saying it was your fault? Noone here as far as I can tell.
Same thing happened to me. I was wearing a dress. Loose and knee length (not provocative at all). It was 7:30 AM at L’Enfant. I reported it, MPD responded (watching everyone leaving the metro, came to my work with photos, etc) but it all happened so quickly that the only way I could identify him was by his clothes. They called it “attempted digital penetration”.
It’s late August in Washington and all pedestrians dress appropriately.
Oh, he would not get away from me, nor would he ever even think of doing that crap again. I cannot write here civilly what I would do to that POS after I caught him doing that if I were that husband.
Thats what I thought too. You are at an unfair advantage if he already had his escape route planned during rush hour metro traffic. I ran after him screaming, but he was strategically placing himself as to get out quickly against the flow of traffic. I couldn’t keep up.
I couldn’t agree more with Anonymous, I’d send that guy to the ER if I caught him taking pictures of my wife.
ICYMI: This matches previous reports from up to a year ago of a guy with the same physical description and MO. He doesn’t just lurk at Columbia Heights – previous reports came from NOVA and downtown. It would have been AWESOME if you had caught him!
Definetly not many people with that MO. Gotta be the same guy. Latin, short, perverted. Really cuts down the suspects…. GOOD WORK FRIDAY!
A perverted hispanic guy in Columbia Heights? No way! I thought the guys who hang out on the street all day making catcalls in Spanish were just telling the girls to have a nice day.
Racism is so much cooler than sexism! Well done.
Truth is so much cooler than what you tell yourself in order to sleep at night!
If you think that is racism, I really wonder how you get through the day without having some sort of social injustice based aneurism. It is a fact that in Columbia Heights there are many Hispanic men who make inappropriate catcalls at women, often in Spanish.
Do you think it is racism if I point out that there are many black people who live in SE, or that Chinese groceries are often full of Chinese people?
+1
Your pro-active response is helpful. Thank you to you and your husband.
+1.
I’m so glad you did something, anything about what you saw. It’s refreshing when people don’t just sit there and tolerate disgusting behavior.
Seems to me women riding Metro might want to choose some sharp (as in pointy) heels with their skirts. A well-placed heel to this freak’s front toe might also teach him a lesson.
And Good on you for running after him – too bad you couldn’t get a pic of him to share with the world.
I believe taking anyone’s photograph against their will is assault, particularly when it can be assumed that the person is doing so for the purpose of sexual gratification (or profit from those who would derive such pleasure from it).
However, is it illegal?
Is there any case law on how DC defines “reasonable expectation of privacy” in subsection (d) in the link below? Most states identify it is a dressing room or a tanning booth, but a public escalator would not fall under that clause. This is why you can take photos of people in the Metro, and on the stree.
http://bit.ly/rtrwJL
Unless there is other legislation or case law defining it, it seems that taking upskirt pics in public places is legal in the District (VA and Maryland both have laws, and U.S. Code prohibits it in territories, but I think Home Rule superceeds that — the same way DC is preparing to make medical marijuana legal while federal laws explicitly bans it)
Any DC lawyers out there who can clarify?
…”However, is it illegal ?”
Please.
Instead of looking into law books, how about a good look in the mirror, MH ?
Are there not expected norms of civil behavior, basic rules of comportment and human conduct in public places ?
Are you not in your folly defending this POS creep and what he did ? Soliciting Washington lawyers’ opinions here on this subject to “clarify”, like we need them ?
Before this thread is done, I expect the the dark haired, 5’5″ Hispanic man in his 20s to be made out to be the victim with denial and all this relativism crap that continues to undermine and destroy our once urbane American city life in our nation’s capital.
I’m sure you that you and your legal Westlaw literacy offer much to a female companion on a Summer evening in Washington at 10:30 PM making her way out of a Metro stop.
I assume you aced the reading comprehension part of the ACT’s, based upon your interpretation of the following paragraph being some type of defense of the suspect’s actions:
“I believe taking anyone’s photograph against their will is assault, particularly when it can be assumed that the person is doing so for the purpose of sexual gratification (or profit from those who would derive such pleasure from it).”
Oddly enough, simply because I believe something, doesn’t make it a law in the District. Who would’ve thunk?
But go on with your vigilante justice and rack up your own charges of simple assault, destruction of property and the other such fun charges actually on the books in DC just so you can show how macho you are at 10:30 on the Metro escalator.
Jesus Christ, seriously?
You don’t think this would fall under a sexual harrasment law?
WTF is wrong with you? Women don’t have to put up with enough shit (hey, baby and then fucking bitch gets really old) without you deciding that upskirt photos are legal?
go to http://hollabackdc.wordpress.com/, spend some time reading about the kind of stuff we have to put up with, on a daily basis, starting from when you’re maybe 12, and then think before you post this kind of crap.
Whatever happened to “sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me”? You CAN just ignore this type of shit – they’re really just looking for a reaction anyway.
No, I am not looking for a reaction. I am being serious. I don’t want anyone taking upskirt pics of anyone I care about. I think this is a law that needs to be crafted, since other states have apparently done so in such a way as to not infringe upon Constitutional rights.
But, as it seems to me as a non-lawyer, there is currently no law in the District. That is why i asked for anyone more familiar with the DC Code if there is case law or anything else that is used.
No, no, not you!! The guys who yell “hey baby” are looking for a reaction! You are making perfect sense!
Ahh, OK.
Clearly spoken from a position of privilege.
It’s easy to say that words can’t hurt you when you aren’t harrassed on the street every single day, multiple times a day. Of course you can try to ignore it, but eventually it gets to you. (And, for myself and many other survivors of sexual assault sometimes triggers flashbacks.)
And what happens when you ignore it?
It escalates.
If you ignore “hey, baby” it turns into, “frigid bitch” and sometimes into being followed, or touched.
You have no idea what it’s like – and that’s the point.
It’s more than just words. They’re making everyone within earshot look at you and think of you in a sexual context. It’s embarassing.
Unless they’re being really obscene I spout some smart-ass retort, to demonstrate that they don’t have power over me, and go on my way.
Jane,
No, if I am reading the law correctly, it does not fall under any sexual harassment law.
I have never been on city council, and have never voted on nor introduced laws into the D.C. Code. However, I will not allow myself to be victimized by your misplaced misandric posting for pointing out the legal code in the District.
I admit I overreacted a bit – but it’s a significant stretch to claim I’m misandric because I’m expressing my frustration that you don’t understand the impact this kind of constant harassment has on women.
I’d like to know what kind of woman gets constantly harassed. My wife is an attractive woman, and she does deal, on occasion, with unwanted attention, but to my knowledge, she doesn’t deal with constant harassment. She dresses and acts modestly, and she doesn’t put herself in difficult or uncomfortable situations, but the vibe I’m getting from you is that those are not the reasons she doesn’t get harassed. Can you enlighten me?
Captcha: TEES
How old is she? Since crossing the 25-year-old threshold I’ve been getting harassed a lot less.
According to some of the commenters here, I reckon, neither age nor clothing matters. Apparently, context never matters.
I think a lot of it has to do with geographic location.
I honestly would like to know, as well. I am in my late 20′s and am harrassed seemingly constantly (I’m sure it sometimes seems worse than it is, but it occurs at least once a day). I don’t notice any increase/decrease based on what I’m wearing (I’m harrassed in my modest work clothes, my ugly running clothes, my modest weekend day clothes and my slightly sexy but certainly not vulgar “going out clothes” in equal measure. I certainly act “modestly,” as well. I am typically harrassed when walking to the bus/to wherever it is I’m going, so I’m not sure how it could possibly relate to how I’m acting. I’m not sure what you consider a “difficult or uncomfortable situation,” but I’m assuming you don’t consider walking my own neighborhood/the neighbhorhood where my work is/the neighbhorhood where I have appointments to be “putting myself in a difficult or uncomfortable situation.”
I suppose it could partially be based on geography, but, again, I seem to be harrassed in equal measure on the Hill, in the H St. area, in Chinatown, in Dupont and in the Golden Triangle area. (I’m in other neighborhoods from time-to-time, but those are the ones I tend to frequent.) Perhaps there are some neighborhoods in which harrassment is less of a problem, but I don’t really think I can reasonably avoid large swaths of the city, particularly when I need to be there for work.
I guess my point is that context generally doesn’t matter. Women are harrassed throughout the city regardless of what they are wearing/how they are dressed/what kind of “uncomfortable situations” they are putting themselves in. I’ve often wondered why it is that I seem to experience harrassment at a greater frequency than some friends, so if you are genuinely curious, I am, as well. There just doesn’t seem to be an answer out there!
What makes you think she would tell you about it if she was getting harassed on a daily basis? I deal with unwanted attention all over the place but don’t come home and recap every disgusting comment to my roommates because, sadly, it has become part of my everyday existence and doesn’t really merit a conversation.
Also, “words can never hurt me” Anon: Words can become “sticks and stones” when you ignore street harassers and they grab at you/hit you/etc.
at least no butts were slashed!
If you expose your woohoo on the metro, it’s entirely possible someone might take a photo of it.
No, what Andy was assuming is that the skirt was short. As someone who has worn skirts for 37 years, I can tell you that something needn’t be attention-grabbing short for this to happen.
I don’t think my response was bananas. Or did you mean hysterical?
“short blue dress”
That’s a quote from the OP.
That could mean a lot of things. What he didn’t say was that it was anything provocative or unusual, as many seem to be assuming.
Really? Which comments did you get that from? I’ll re-read the whole thread later but I didn’t think that the raciness of the outfit ever entered the discussion or that it was an underlying assumption of any of the arguments.
In fact I think the description of the outfit is pretty tangential to the discussion.
I’m laughing that so many posters think that it takes a particularly short skirt for something like this to happen. Women are harassed wearing all kinds of things, regardless how short or slutty or attractive they are. My scariest experience in DC took place when I was covered in sweat and wearing a T shirt and ugly sweatpants. For all we know, the girl mentioned here could have been wearing something knee-length and conservative – no where did the writer say she was wearing something revealing or inappropriate.
Not that it should make a difference, anyway, of course.
A man doing something like this to you is TERRIFYING.It’s awesome that the poster chased the creeper. Last year I read about the exact same thing happening to a woman in the Rosslyn metro. No one helped her, despite the fact that she screamed and was clearly in tears out of shock, and that really disturbed me. Way to go, OP!
I am glad the husband of the victim reads PoP! I am sorry I didn’t go back to the metro to see if your wife was alright– she just looked like she was trying to get away and I didn’t want to go back and keep her out any longer as she looked so uncomfortable. Even more sorry I didn’t catch the SoB! I got a very good look at his face; if the police find anything, please ask the Prince to send you my e-mail address. I will be happy to corroborate your wife’s story. If I ever see that man in Columbia Heights again he sure will be sorry he set foot in our neighborhood!
The police? Did he do anything illegal?
What would you have done if you caught the guy?
Wow, people will really start to hate you now
Then thank god this is just the internet, and I’m not really Mr. Poon in real life. Or am I?
It’s a reasonable question. The irony in all this — irrespective of what anyone thinks about the actual act — is that the only illegal thing that happened is when Allison assaulted this Salvadoran guy by chasing him around lower Columbia Heights, and I guess intended to batter him. Destroy his phone, maybe.
And Poon loves irony.
I hesitate to respond to a constant troll on PoP, but I think there is a teachable moment here. As a law student, the first thing I learned is that what’s legal isn’t always right, and what’s right isn’t always legal. Sometimes you have to do the human thing, as opposed to the lawyerly thing. And sometimes vice versa. I made a decision to be a neighbor, and not a lawyer, that night.
You’re truly a hero. Your torts professor would agree.
I hesitate to respond to anyone who hestitates to respond to me, but if a troll is someone who doesn’t take everything as seriously as you do, including the idea of a law student chasing a Salvadoreno down Irving Street for taking a surrepticious cell phone pic, I’m guilty. I live in the neighborhood and take that escalator twice/day. I’m just not so fucking serious about everything.
I saw something like this happen at an electronics store recently. The guy (who was there with his kids) got caught by a security guard taking a shot up a woman’s skirt. He was arrested and the kids mom had to come get them. So yes, I’m pretty sure the cops would do something about it if they were called.
Thanks Allison – we told the police that a couple had chased him down Irving when giving the initial report. Can’t say enough how much we appreciate the fact that you tried to catch him, it means a lot to know that people are looking out for each other.
When did pointing out that there are creepy/predatory people out there and that doing certain things may trigger them to seek you out as a victim of their sickness become synonymous with saying that women dont have the right to wear what they want to wear?
Expressing beliefs about risk factors and pontificating about rights are 2 different things.
However, there is an extreme element of society that wishes to create a strawman to argue against which is the “oppressive male” and his accompanying privilege that tries to take womens’ right to wear their taste of clothing, whether its tasteful, skimpy, distasteful, or full burkas, away. That dog doesnt hunt. 99.99999% of men dont hate women, want to rape or abuse women, or sympathize with men who do. The tendency for some to jump to these instant conclusions is discriminatory and destructive.
Incidentally, for all of those out there saying “women have the right to wear whatever they want without being victims of abuse”, what are your views on the muslim headscarf? Male oppression or women expressing themselves and their faith… just wondering!
If a woman wears a headscarf because she fears unwanted male attention or abuse if she doesn’t, then clearly that’s bad. If she is doing so to express her faith, good for her. Not complicated.
Also, it is a myth that certain clothing makes it more likely for a woman to face harassment. Women are harassed wearing all manner of things, both attractive and not attractive.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with stating the obvious, like that creepers exist and we should be careful. But the fact that the FIRST reaction so may posters had to this story was focusing on what the girl was wearing kind of weirds me out. My first reaction was 1) that really sucks and is scary and 2) awesome that people reacted the way they did. Not “wow, that skirt must have been REALLY short.”
I don’t believe that most people on this thread actually think that Andy (or anyone else) is saying that “women don’t have the right to wear what they want to wear.” The point many have tried to make is that comments that women should just be prepared for harrassment/learn to deal with it/ignore it are part of a larger cultural context in which women are told that they need to just deal with being victims instead of telling (an admittedly small group of) men that they need to stop victimizing women. You’ll note that no one has said, “The truth is that there will often be women wearing short skirts in public. You need to prepare yourself for this possibility and deal with the headache of not harrassing them.”
The strawman that you allege is being created is not actually being created. Of course the vast majority of people know that the vast majority of men don’t actively live their day-to-day lives with the goal of oppressing women and limiting what they wear. The more nuanced point is that men (and many women) still believe that women need to just “prepare” to be harrassed (and, apparently, even to have upskirt pictures taken) when the goal should be to come close to eradicating and to place greater shame upon these kinds of behaviors. For example, I was at dinner with five friends last weekend (four males, one female) when one told a story about a man who harrassed every woman who passed him on the street. He remarked how funny it was and everyone agreed. Of course, I don’t believe my good friends want to consciously oppress women, but how those women felt when he harrassed them didn’t even cross their minds. I mentioned something and one of my friends asked his girlfriend (the other female present) if she got harrassed as much as I did. He later said that he assumed I was getting harrassed so much because of the way I dress and my body type. He wasn’t saying it was my fault, but he was saying that I should just live with it if I wanted to dress a certain way. (Again, not saying I deserve it, but saying that I should change my behavior to avoid it.)
It’s obviously a difficult issue because I believe that no one in this discussion wants to oppress women or would outwardly blame them, but I think a lot of people don’t realize how much little things build into a larger culture.
tl;dr It seems no one here is outright saying that women are at fault when they are victimized or harrassed, but people are buying into the larger argument that women should expect and live with harrassment.
+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Yeah this explained it a lot better than I did.
hey, uh, just so you can maybe rethink your world view for a second… in both my advanced human sexuality and psych of gender courses in college, my professors cited a reputable study that 1/3rd of college-age men would rape a woman if they knew they would get away with it. ONE THIRD. about the same number of women have been in abusive relationships. at the minimum, I think your 99.999% statistic dead wrong. the fact of the matter is, that most women on most days deal with men’s hate in some form or another. whether it’s institutional at work or walking down the street or from their partners or friends. so when somebody mentions the way this woman was dressed at all, maybe you could try to be more understanding of what we have to deal with every day.
What study says that 1/3 of college age men would rape given the opportunity? That number seems exaggerated.
It was 10 years ago, I don’t have my notes.
When you preface your remark with “in both my advanced human sexuality and psych of gender courses in college,” I know exactly what’s coming. Why is that? I wish those classes weren’t so ideological.
As a male, I find this personally offensive and hard to believe. If you are going to throw out numbers like this, you better have something to back it up.
As for all the victim blamers in this thread, any length of skirt can result in this happening when the man is 2 feet below you on a metro escalator. She did nothing to “deserve” any of this. Your dress was very pretty and you have every right to wear it without being assaulted!
ctrl+f – exactly ZERO people have said the victim “deserve[d]” this. No one is blaming the victim. No one has even insinuated that the victim is even remotely at fault. Andy didn’t say anything like that, despite the hysterical responses from a couple of people.
“Hysterical,” really? Nice touch.
You have to wear a short skirt or else the metro escalator will eat it!
Separate issues here – 1.upskirt photos and sexual harassment is always wrong 2. A woman’s attire in no way justifies harassment. 3. Women should know that if you wear a short skirt on an escalator, everyone below you can see you entire bottom. And they will look at it – weather a five year-old giggling – because they giggle at butts – a perve leering or regular guys enjoying the sight.
So I’ve been wondering, how short can a skirt be before someone on the escalator can see up it? I’m guessing it depends on a lot of factors, such as your height and the cut of the skirt, so how would you know? I do think it’s a good strategy if you have a large bag to shift it so it sort of covers your butt.. just in case.
I haven’t done a thorough study – really just noticed an escalator full of people gawking – (the thong undies didn’t help) Myself, I looked away (not offended, just jealous of that firm smooth lusciously rounded juicy squeezable dinner roll mound of taunting flesh.) But I’d say the swingier the skirt, the more it shows.
+1000 This is the most intelligent, realistic comment on the entire thread. Sums up all the issues correctly.
Not that I’m saying a woman can’t show her panties to the world. Actually, I am. It’d be kind of gross if panties became the new pants. I draw the line at accidental and fleeting exposure. Please continue to wear pants, women and men alike.
Regardless of attire, however, one should definitely chase down or report a weirdo who’s filming women in public. It doesn’t have a thing to do with what’s she’s wearing, so much as what he’s doing. Give him a good scare at least.
Flip it around and imagine that a guy gets his crotch grabbed by another guy cause he wears a tank top and shows off his chest — which can be every bit as sexual as wearing a skirt. Would most people say that the guy in the tank should’ve dressed more discretely or at least been more careful? No way.
BTW, I don’t mean the guy is in a skirt, although I guess that can be hot too!
Imagine what life would be like if all the male attention just went away….
Everything would be great until it’s time to:
1. Buy drinks at the club
2. Fix your hot water heater
3. Any other activity women might relay on a male “friend” for
God, yeah, you’re right, having my hot water heater fixed is just as demeaning as having strangers take pictures of my crotch.
I think this would be great. More girls would take the initiative to buy their own drinks and learn how to fix things.
Maybe if women got paid the same amount men did they wouldn’t have to ask them to buy drinks.
Bleh, OK, even I think this comment is annoying.
My cue to start working again…
Love this one +1
btw, go to another country where the culture isn’t as paternalistic, scandinavia for instance, and you’ll see that life goes on and people still procreate.
Interesting article about this:
http://city-journal.org/2011/21_3_gender-gap.html
dude, this article is completely useless. it’s written under the incorrect assumption that the wage comparison is for different jobs. I thought this was cleared up by now.
I don’t think you read the article very closely. I would not have posted it if it were “completely useless.” I think it contributes something to the larger discussion, and that discussion has to do with babies.
*snort*
I love how this is “male attention”. is that what you tell your date when you’re raping her? “what, baby? you said you wanted my attention!”
unless this is your unsuccessful attempt at humor, you are pretty much the scum of the earth and I’m sorry that i even responded to this.
ummm, 1. i have a job and own a flask; 2. i can read directions; 3. i own a vibrator.
you got anything else?
Ha! Or in my case..
1. My job probably pays better than yours (engineering) and I own a flask; 2. I can read directions (see also #1); 3. I have a girlfriend.
Amusing anecdote: I actually got cussed at by a guy at Lindy’s for not letting him buy me a drink.
I wonder what Dave Chappelle would say about this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K1KHqi9bXc
It’s funny because it’s true.
…”However, is it illegal ?”
Please.
Instead of looking into law books, how about a good look in the mirror, MH ?
Are there not expected norms of civil behavior, basic rules of comportment and human conduct in public places ?
Are you not in your folly defending this POS creep and what he did ? Soliciting Washington lawyers’ opinions here on this subject to “clarify”, like we need them ?
Before this thread is done, I expect the the dark haired, 5’5″ Hispanic man in his 20s to be made out to be the victim with denial and all this relativism crap that continues to undermine and destroy our once urbane American city life in our nation’s capital.
I’m sure that you and your legal Westlaw literacy offer much to a female companion on a Summer evening in Washington at 10:30 PM making her way out of a Metro stop.
As someone who has really likes girls and has dated a few, I can tell you (in my experience) that they DO wear short skirts to get attention. Generally benign, positive attention. They really don’t do it to blend in. Sometimes it does go wrong.
On the other hand, knowledgeable people love to cite crime stats that the number one determiner of sex crimes (other than knowing a victim) is opportunity. Ugly girls wearing Burqas are just as likely to get it as Tri-Delta’s in micro-mini skirts.
However, I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle as it is very difficult to take an upskirt if the victim is wearing a Burqa.
I think that one positive we can take from this thread is that while some people pointed out that short skirts are attention grabbers (which I thought was obvious but seems contentious), NO ONE defended the assailant. So actually I think we are all pretty much on the same page. Just different degrees of it.
The up-burqa could become the new porn trend of the middle east! I need to invest in this.
All guys know (even if they won’t admit it) that they wear tank tops and show their underwear cause it has a sexual component. I’m starting to think from some of these comments that guys want other guys to ogle them in the shower, squeeze their packages on the metro, etc. Even if they say no, they mean yes. If they didn’t want it, they shouldn’t work out, play sports and wear sexy clothing that turns on other guys.
Woo hoo!
What about the guys who wear their jeans below their waist, woth half or more of their boxers showing?
Good example. I guess it means they want man hands running up and down their bodies. If they didn’t, why would they show off like that?
I have been meaning to write in my own post to PoP about someone who I believe may tbe same man. I live at 13th and Park Road and I have had to call the cops on him three times. The last time, he watched me walk into my house (the story is quite long this is WAY abbreviated) and I totally creeped out locked up the house and went upstairs to look out the window to see that he was across the three masturbating openly in my neighbor’s yard. I called the cops, they came, and wiith 1/2 hr I saw him back on the corner.
He is 5’5 latino, always has this very red blood shot eyes/sort of a drugged up gaze, his hair is shorter (but not buzz) like 1.5-2 inches long. I have seen him before wearing timberland like boots, jeans and a tee shirt. The first run in I had with him was over 1.5 years ago when he followed me walking my dog, snuck up behind me and I realized his pants were undone and he had a hand on a gun.
If this is the same man, he not safe and all women of the neighborhood should be aware. I have spoken to my roommates and female neighbors. If the woman writing in would like to discuss this please let me know. My last run in with this guy was last Friday. I have been wanting to write into PoP to ask for suggestions. The cops come but they don’t do anything and he’s still wandering the streets. I’m not sure what you can do but some creepshow taking pictures up womens skirts or jerking off at 3 pm in the middle of someone’s yard is ground enough for me to start carrying pepper spray. Cause lord knows the cops aren’t going to do anything.
Just thinking this is making me shake, out of anger, out of fear, out of frustration.
EMM- this description matches *exactly*, even down to the 2 inch hair.
Please ask Dan (da Prince!) for my e-mail. (I’m not keen on posting my whole name here.) I’d be happy to correspond with anyone about this, and other crime prevention in the neighborhood.
PS, I’m still interested in that litter clean up everyone was talking about a few posts ago!
Allison –
Thank you again SO much for chasing after him – it meant so much. My husband and I will be in touch with you via PoP to give you the info for the officers we talked to.
Thank you again!
Wait a second, this guy is probably on drugs and people are drawing conclusions about the whole gender based on his actions!? He could be mentally ill as well. Not that it makes it any less wrong, but it makes it more about this guy and less about men in general.
Hi Emm –
Thank you for writing in on this, I was the one who he did that to on the metro. I am so sorry you had to deal with him as well. Your description is also exactly spot on, his hair is shorter but def not buzzed and he had an awful dazed expression on his face that did not change until he was chased off (thank you SO much for doing that). It was very apparent he was on something.
I am going to follow up with the police with the information that we got today and hopefully they can do something to catch him. If anyone has anything else regarding this man please let the police know, anything to help take him off the street and prevent him from doing anything further.
thank you.
Well this is just plain horrible for both you and EMM. Sorry to hear you’ve been put through this, and thankfully more people in Columbia Heights now know to be on the lookout for this creep.
Whoa. Go to a meeting and come back the most hated dude on PoP. Sorry to all who have been offended.
You really didn’t say anything wrong.
You said it like it is…nothing fancy, nothing ideological, nothing straining to be politically correct. Common sense has been lost on most people, I’m afraid. The degree of misplaced anger and name-calling around this topic is depressing.
Was the OP not wearing underwear or something? What’s the big deal? Just tell the guy to F’n knock it off!
“What’s the big deal?”?? Wow.
So the dust settles and the OP responds, and we find out the upskirt photo taker:
1) Is a repeat offender, suggesting he is either mentally ill, brazen, or both
2) Has a “dazed look”, suggesting he is on drugs or at least drunk
3) Has been able to elude the cops after encounters, probably because the complainants describe him as a “short Latino”.
But not before Jane and a number of other posters take the opportunity to blame men, and greater society, for allowing this to be acceptable behavior. Ooooookay. Ladies, you’re not helping your cause.
Terribly sorry that all the “ladies” get so upset about having a bunch of people mansplain street harassment and proper outdoor attire to us. I should have known better than to read this comment thread.
OP, thanks for taking action. S, EMM, I hope you’re okay and that this guy is off the streets soon.
Except that nobody did that, but don’t stop that from keeping your victim mentality going strong.
Foreigner here… Please explain this to me… Girls wear miniskirts… – what for? To attract whichever sex they’re hoping to attract, right? Or, do they wear them to make themselves feel good and attractive to themselves?
Whatever the reasoning is, be it a girl or a guy or Jesus Christ, I say, be prepared to be noticed. Now, there are people, who would try to take advantage of this, and that shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone. I’m a guy and a gay. Not unattractive, mind you, but I never act “available” in any way, because I’m not ready to face the consequences of it. I’m not saying that this incident should be disregarded, but that everyone is on display at any time nowadays, with all the baggage attached. I’m sorry, but big freaking deal – some guy took a picture of a girl’s leg… oooh, pervert!
And, just to be clear, I hope that girls continue to wear whatever they wish to wear without being harassed.
This is very funny to me bc on numerous occasions this summer I’ve come across women wearing skirts in the metro who get a Marilyn Monroe situation going on when it gets windy a the exit/entrance. Most of the time they aren’t wearing underwear. I don’t know why they keep wearing skirts. Must not want to be told what to do. But the wind always wins!
To all the people who are like “OH BUT SHE WAS WEARING A SHORT SKIRT”, go fuck yourselves.
I was groped on the metro in Chinatown on my way home from work (bartending) when I was wearing a smelly, stain covered shirt and really loose unflattering black pants. Creeps are creeps. It doesn’t matter what you’re wearing.
Similar incidents elsewhere:
Up-Skirt Filming Suspect Caught at Dulles
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Up-Skirt-Photo-Suspect-Caught-at-Dulles-114978904.html
Two ‘up-skirt pervs’ nabbed (New York Post)
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/two_up_skirt_pervs_nabbed_b962BytBB9QJE7WPOcVE7M
I was a victim. Shopping at Target with my kids, this creeper tap my leg. I yelled “what are you doing”? He started walking fast, I pursued yelling at Target guy to call for help. By the time the officer got to the creeper, no evidence, I asked is it possible he could have two phones?! Maybe but couldn’t pursue it, case closed.
I agree that creeps will be creeps and victims should not be blamed. That being said there are a lot of people on here outraged over the notion that more provocative/revealing outfits make certain people stand out as targets. Lets do an experiment where 2 twin sisters walk across town together, 1 wearing a t-shirt and jeans and the other wearing a thong bikini. Do you people really believe they will both be treated equally?
you’re not quite getting it, huh?
What I “get” is that 1 of these women in this experiment will most certainly get harassed more than the other. Doesn’t make it alright but sure does blow the theory out of the water that wearing certain outfits has no bearing over getting harassed or not that so may commenters on here are insisting. Huh?