Dear PoP – Tent Camp in Shaw

“Dear PoP,

I was wondering if you’ve seen the tent city that has popped up on the vacant plot at R and 7th, right across the street from the Shaw-Howard U Metro. It appears to be a fairly organized movement of squatters, and judging by the signs, they are protesting some aspect of land rights/affordable housing. It must have developed sometime in between Friday morning and Monday morning (judging by my walks to work). I recommend you check it out.”

I was emailed some info (including the youtube video above) and a Web site called Tent City DC that says:

“On July 10th, ONE DC members and supporters began a stand for equity in constructing a TENT CITY on Parcel 42 at 7th St NW & Rhode Island Ave NW, to to begin building an intentional community on the city-owned lot so that there can be housing and shelter in the neighborhood affordable for families making under $50,000.

ONE DC has organized for over four years to ensure that the housing development planned for Parcel 42 addressed the housing crisis faced by no-to-low-income households. Two years ago, ONE DC members believed that they had a victory with Parcel 42 – Fenty’s administration agreed to build affordable housing development, which would include 94 units with a promised $7.8 million city subsidy.”

You can find more info about the group here and here.

Do you think setting up a tent city is an appropriate way for this group to achieve their goals?

162 Comment

  • How about get your ass out and work for a place to live like the rest of us? How about if you don’t want to then you move somewhere else?

    How about somebody build affordable housing for people who busted their ass working 3 jobs to put them selves through school, working 12 hour days to get promoted and are making a decent salary but have to pay 400K just to live in a one bedroom in a part of town that you won’t get shot?

    How about help those who help themselves and those who can’t help themselves and to hell with people who don’t want to do anything but hold their hands out.

    If “I” want to live here “I” don’t have any options other than to work my ass off to do it. Why should “I” pay for “You” just because you choose not to do better for yourself? If you got enough balls to climb over a fence you got enough balls to pick up trash on the street, read a book in the library and make a better life for yourself.

    • anyone else want to handle this one?

    • I take it you’re not Pam Grier, Foxy. I understand what you’re raving about–in theory. But have you ever spoken to these folks? Or anyone who been a doormat despite “reading a book in the library” and other such panaceas? If so fine. Most folks aren’t scumbags, lunatics, goldbrickers. But we always seem to find them for TV, however.

      I don’t think gentrification kills. It saves lives. I don’t agree with the tent city concept, nevertheless. I do think Fenty lies to everyone, whether rich or poor. I do think there should be affordable housing for poorfolk, like I think we who are working and trying to make the city better should be recognized.
      That said, build it in Ward 3 so those truly rich assholes–richer than all of us–can understand and empathize, and the poorfolk learn something. Does any of that happen in real life? Likely not, but let’s try anyway, rather than rant.

      • That’s idiotic. I don’t know these people, so I can’t judge them. But how about actually *allowing* affordable housing in the first place?

        How about abandoning rent control completely, which incentivizes the construction of high-priced, misplaced condo developments? How about reducing the insane red tape, land-use restrictions, and bureaucracy that have been held over since Barry’s reign of terror? How about D.C. cuts tax rates so that developers don’t feel pressured to build out excessively in order to (one day?) get a decent rate of return on their investment? How about getting the meddling morons on the council and ANCs to shut the hell up for once about every damn construction project taking place? How about we get those folks to stop whoring to their shady developer buddies and giving them subsidies? Not to mention all the transit stupidity in D.C.

        But, if we must build soon-to-be-dilapidated-and-crime-ridden public housing projects, why would they be in Ward 3? So D.C. taxpayers (i.e., not the people residing in these buildings) have to pay out the ass for overpriced Ward 3 property? I generally stop trying to stick it to The Man when The Man starts robbing me blind to pay for it…

        • A friend bought a low-priced condo in Ward 3 in the early 90s. He sold in in the late 90s for 3 times what he paid for it for a parent desperate to get their child in Ward 3 schools.

          The first person to rent an affordable apartment in Ward 3 would sublet it to a desperate parent and it would cease to be affordable housing.

          I had a friend who sublet a rent controlled apartment in NYC. When she moved in with her boyfriend she sublet it to someone else and pocketed $50 per month profit. Turns out when the lessee died there were like 5 levels of subletters each one taking a profit the landlord could not.

    • How about you starting to help people instead of steriotyping them!!!..How about you stop complaining about the decisions you made…..Oh before I forget…..Good job on “busting your ass, working your way through school, and getting promoted!!”…I will take you and mizanne out for lunch, then both of you can bitch to each other……Not everyone in public housing is looking for a handout! some of us work very hard everyday!!!

    • Amen to that, Foxy.

      • this protest is in support of “no to low income”. i don’t know what qualifies as “low income, but i know what “no income” means. how much “no income” people should we support? how many “no income” people that are not senior citizens or disabled should we support?

        and you are very wrong to think that people in public housing are not looking for a “handout”. public housing IS a handout. this is part our problem with poverty. it is not okay and normal to be on government assistance. it is something that each must work hard to get out of. all of us that vote to support welfare programs are voting to support helping people out. and the OUT part is critical. get OUT of your bad situation.

    • I could not have said it any better myself!

  • The OneDC people campaigned vigorously in 2007 for the group with the winning proposal to redevelop this parcel and now are complaining that it is a broken promise of the Fenty Administration. I say, take responsibility for your own cronyism, OneDC. As someone who lives nearby (three blocks away), I followed the proposal process closely and was disappointed in the outcome then and am not surprised that OneDC’s favorite so far has not delivered. If this project or some variation of it does come to fruition, I will remain hopeful that the bulk of the new residents will be as close to the 60% median income mark/limit because 7th Street, NW has plenty of concentrated poverty and the crime that comes along with it. Poor does not mean criminal, but concentrated poverty guarantees more crime.

  • Completely agree with FoxyBrown. Gentrification kills…only the weak.

    • It’s people like you mizanne and your cohort foxybrown that makes it tough for people of color to advance!. You must be a transplant from Uranus or Pluto. What has the poor and the disenfranchised done to you? Maybe while you and whoever FoxyBrown is was “working so hard” you lost your compassion….There is and will always be poor!…People who are the doormats of the well to do. Not everyone was born with a silver spoon in their mouth, or have the ability or intelligence to advance in life. It is the responsibility of those who can to teach those who can’t!…I have an Idea, why don’t you and foxybrown go down to the tent city and share your views with them in person, I am sure they will give you the welcome you deserve!

      • There are enough housing projects in Shaw. There are four within 3 blocks of my house.

        Don’t give me any more ‘they need a place to live’ bullsh*t. They’ve got plenty within walking distance of the White House, right next to a metro entrance ALREADY.

        If you don’t live here with the gunshots coming from lincoln westmoreland, the drug dealers hanging out on the corners, the yelling and fights at night, then stfu. This doesn’t concern you.


        • if you can’t take the heat……do something besides complaining about the drug dealing, fights, gunshots etc….start a neighborhood watch!!!!…why would you live in an are where you are scared to come out your house!!!!…Oh I know, it’s the most up and coming area in DC….so instead of helping the people you’d rether force them out!….

          • I said there are enough housing projects in shaw. Not ‘i’m afraid to come out of my house’.

            If you think a higher concentration of public housing = helping anyone out, then you’re a dipshit.

            It’s warehousing problems and misery. So why don’t you shove your bullshit.

  • 7.8 million dollars for 94 units equals aprox. $85,000.00 per unit. Redfin currently lists 111 units 1-3 bedrooms in DC for that much or less. They are all in NE or SE however. So the problem isn’t really affordable housing, but why people they aren’t willing to live where affordable housing already exists.

    • The $7.8 million figure is a city subsidy, not the combined amount the building will cost.

    • Amen. My thought exactly–affordable housing exists, people are just stubborn or have to big a sense of entitlement to live somewhere else.

  • Pfffft, why work hard for something when you can just throw a fit and get it for free? If that doesn’t work, just keep making baseless accusations of racism/classism until enough of the affluent feel bad enough about their own extravagances that they pity the noble savages and relent to assuage the pangs of guilt of having it so good in a city full of poverty.

    • see my comments to Foxy.

    • me

      THANK YOU.

      I work hard for my mortgage and money to spend on food, bills, etc. I make a decent living, but by no means am I rich. I don’t really like my job. So, maybe I’ll just bitch and then I won’t have to pay my mortgage anymore.

      And it’s not racism. I feel that way towards all of the people that take advantage of the system and don’t want to work for money. I don’t care if you’re white, black, brown, or friggin purple.

      I’ve seen flyers around the neighborhood that say “Housing is a right”. No, it’s not. If I stopped paying my mortgage, I’d be kicked out.

      I don’t get it. People say that everyone should be treated equally- all races, creeds, sexual preference, etc. It shouldn’t matter how much money you have or how much cleavage you show. Well, there’s no way that those who do not have jobs and do nothing but exploit the system shouldn’t get a leg up on me for trying to follow the law, have a job, and trying to be a productive member of society.

      • What makes you think that people who live on subsidies from the city are lazy?…That is so not true!!! there are seniors who worked hard all their lives had to get subsidies in order to afford a decent place to live! Could be your Mother, Father, Aunt or Uncle. Congratulations on “making it”…You best pray that you don’t lose that job you don’t like and end up in the same boat as some of these people!!!…You need to wake up and smell the coffee!!! and stop commenting on issues you couldn’t possibly know anything about!!! Do your neighbors know that you are arrogant asshole?…Or do you go to and from work with your eyes closed?…The problem is real!!!

        • I’d say it’s real goddamn easy to call someone lazy who is lounging around in a tent all day demanding something for free while I scurry past beween 10 hours workdays. I’ve alreay been laid off once this year, you know what I did? I slashed my expenses to an extreme, and took the 1st job offered to me, taking a 25% pay cut. Why? Becaus it’s what I needed to do to make ends meet and pay my outrageous DC rent. I ate tuna fish sandwhixhes every day for 4 months just to cover the rent.
          But next time, Ill make sure to just complain about it publicly until I get what I feel I deserve. Make sure to stop by and gve me a pat on the back for it.

          • for your information most of the people who are staying in the Tent City work!!! they just sleep there get up, go home take a shower and go to work….I am one of them!!! on the contrary, it takes a lot of energy to do that!!!…asshole….learn the facts before you comment!

    • me

      Oh, and if you DO think that housing is a right? Then come and let some of them live in your spare bedroom.

      If I don’t feel like working anymore, can I come stay with you too???


    • see my comments to mizanne! you can join them in telling the organizers of the Tent City how you feel instead of hiding behind a computer!!!!

      • me

        Your reply to mizanne says that we don’t want people of color to advance. I am of color. I don’t care WHAT color they are. It’s not about racism. Everyone pulls the race card, and it makes us all look bad.

        • Not pulling the race card….Just giving you the facts….Do you even care how these people got in the situation they are in?….Being of color I would think that you would have some compassion for the poor and disenfranchised… no matter what color they are…..Do you have any people in your family who recieved or still recieves any kind of help from the government? Don’t let the actions of a few fools allow you to turn your back on your community! People of color have always had to fight harder for Basic Human Rights!…Do you think folks want to be poor? All of the poor are not lazy or criminals!!!….Come out from that rock you been hiding under and see the reality of the situation!!!…It is true that there are people (of all color) who take advantage of the system, but that is no reason for you to steriotype all poor, or low income as criminals!! The reason I “pulled the race card” is because most of the poor and disenfranchised here in DC are people of color!

          • me

            Did I stereotype them as “criminals”? No. I didn’t say that, at all. Your first sentence says you didn’t play the race card, yet your last sentence says you did. You need to realize that while we can have a bit of compassion for the homeless, there is only so far it can go. If I lose my job and don’t take it upon myself to cut expenses, find other work, and basically do everything I can to get by, I can just set up a tent on a plot of land and say that it’s mine? Bull.

  • This is so infuriating. Parcel 42 is SURROUNDED by subsidized and public housing.

    The group is part of a radical leftist organization called “take back the land” headquartered in Miami:

    They claim “30,000 to 60,000 homeless people are in the streets of the city”:

    30,000 to 60,000? That says everything you need to know about their credibility.

    I’d love to know where these protesters live – something tells me, not in the blocks surrounding Parcel 42. I don’t live near there either, but I am totally convinced that concentrating poverty ultimately hurts the people they claim to be watching out for.

    • and how long have you been a resident of Ledroit park? or for that matter DC?….It is you who doesn’t understand. Try putting yourself in the shoes of some of these people.

      • I’ve been a ledroit resident for 10 years.

        whose shoes exactly should i be putting myself in? the stanford grad who is leading the protest until she heads off to get her PhD?

        what’s your story?

        • My name says it all!!!! As a matter of fact it is not her alone leading the fight, I am one of the Organizers also!!!…I lived in the Shaw community for over 30 years….I support the “Stanford Graduate”” at least she is using what she knows to help people less fortunate. Maybe put your feet in MY shoes, I didn’t go to Stanford!!!!…God forbid you fall on hard times!!!…You would probably go crazy!!!….Don’t comment on issues you know nothing about!!!…Come out and talk to some of these people…Or are you one of those who moves into an improvished neighborhood and not try to truly connect with the community…..I could never spend my money to live somewhere where I am afraid of my neighborhood! That’s CRAZY….I don’t care how much of a “DEAL” the property is…..10 years…WOW!!!…So when are you moving out again? LOL

          • My name says it all!!!
            all you have is where you’re from?
            what have you done since then?

      • how many years must one live somewhere, anywhere, to be a ‘part’ of a community? is there a magic number?

  • Really fail to understand the self-righteous comments to this posting. Why do the comments seem to indicate that poor people don’t work their asses off just as much as anyone else? Nevertheless, this society and all like it are class-segregated by nature. Rich people live around rich people, poor people live around poor people. Money = Power. That’s life in a capitalist, profit driven society. Get used to it. These people have a right to protest, though they may have no legal right to be on the land. In the end, they’ll be removed, the land will be sold for condos, and that will be that.

    • me

      “That’s life in a capitalist, profit driven society.”

      Move to North Korea if you don’t like it.

  • 7.8 million dollars? i can get a sweet tent at the new target for 60 bucks. and DL, rich people don’t live next to rich people if you’re in columbia heights. section 8 is right around the corner. :o)

  • So they are protesting something that’s not gonna get built that they don’t agree with in the first place. Sounds about right.

  • Oh, for Pete’s sake. We have enough “affordable housing” in Shaw. That’s why there are near-daily shootings. Build a market-rate condo, and tear down Lincoln-Westmoreland while you’re at it. Then maybe we can get some real progress in the neighborhood. I was told three years ago that 9th Street would be the new 14th Street (and presumably 7th thereafter). It’s not happening because there are still too many “affordable” residents in the ‘hood!

    • You don’t have to tell me…I lived in Shaw for most of my life….Yes there are a few transplants who are trouble makers but that is true for all over the city. I still believe in Shaw!!! I was there when I community was lied to about the Convention Center!!!!…We had countless meetings on the planning and on how the people of Shaw will benefit….All we got was higher taxes!

  • the level of self-righteousness in most of these comments is jaw-dropping. It hasn’t seemed to cross anyone’s mind that a normal, decent person could end up living in a tent, and is deserving of a bit of understanding and sympathy. Everybody carping about what a capitalist dynamo they are should take a good, long look at themselves and think about how much they owe their position to luck, privilege, and the kindness of others before they condemn others as layabouts, or worse, criminals. Maybe spare a breath to express some regret for the situation these people are in before you get on your high horse.

    • you are so wrong I don’t know where to start.

    • me

      Okay, maybe a few of them. But you’re telling me that every single person in that tent city is like that, not taking advantage of the system, and in general, deserve sympathy? You’re out of your hippie mind.

      • Okay: so I’m an insane hippy to suggest that you should have a little compassion for fellow human beings who are in a difficult situation, rather than just condemning them in a huge, sweeping generalization. If these people are criminal con-men “taking advantage of the system,” they sure aren’t doing a very good job of it; I mean, they’re sleeping in tents, and don’t really seem to have much in the way of money or possessions. Save your ire for people who “take advantage of the system” effectively, and live in mansions and penthouses on the public dime.

    • Didn’t you just coment that there are daily shootings in Shaw?…..Make your mind up!

  • I don’t know anything about the organization or anything, but reading the description above, “families making under $50,000” is not exactly indicative of lazy people who don’t work. A single parent making under 50,000 a year for their family could easily be a hard working self educated citizen of the city and still need help finding housing for their kids without them getting shot.

    • People need to study what 60% median income really means. I recently did a lot of research into this and found some pretty alarming facts. Nearly all of the apartments that have been built as “work force” or for people making “60% median income” are actually housing the same people who have abused the public housing system. What this 60% number really means is that when you add the persons income to the value provided by a “Choice Housing Voucher” (section 8) then they have to still make under 60% of the median income. Government has figured out that calling it “affordable” or “work force” people will not oppose it like they will if you say “public housing”. The net result is the same. Affordable or work force means public housing.

      Just look at the Georgia Avenue Commons as an example. The Petworth community was told they were to be for people making 60% of the median income, but 100% of the units rented there are being paid for with choice vouchers. In Columbia Heights, which is already stocked with a hefty supply of affordable housing, everyone is getting happy that Park Mortan will be replaced with housing for people making “60% of the median income”. What they don’t know is that the developer just got approved to take choice housing vouchers. This means the transformation of Park Mortan is actually an expansion of the public housing system in that area. All this really means is that government has figured out a way to trick people into accepting into their communities something that has always been controversial: the warehousing of poor people into certain areas of town. This also controls the market, which is not fair to people investing their money in neighborhood. Crime stays the same, and quality of life remains low.

      • this is a really interesting comment, and a hugely important issue for those of us who live in parts of the city with subsidized public housing. We all know the kinds of social problems that are associated with what is essentially free housing. The District (and in some cases the feds) are paying huge subisidies to build, remodel and renovate the existing subisidized housing, and have described it as “affordable housing”. I, and I assume many of the other readers of this blog, welcome “affordable housing” in the sense that it would be occupied by working people who don’t make much money. If this is instead “free housing” we will see all the same problems come back and I oppose it.

        This issue deserves much more attention in my opinion.

      • Well you do something about it!!!…Start a neighborhood watch or something!!!!…As residents of DC we all have a certain responsibility to our community!

        • where do you live?

        • Funny because 2 blocks away on 5th St there is an excellent neighborhood watch called Red Hats. Their main goal is to combat the 5th & O gang, which is named for the complex they hail from. There is a lot of crime centered around different affordable housing complexes in Shaw.

          I live 3 blocks away from this “Tent City” and I am NOT happy about it. First of all, when I see people set up in a bunch of $200 tents bemoaning the lack of affordable housing, I think it has got to be an effing joke. Show me two stakes, some rope and a sheet, or a lean-to. Second, right across the street is a very large subsidized housing building. Do we need increased concentration in the immediate vicinity? No.

          I want to see the community improve and I feel this is a step in the wrong direction. It is my opinion that subsidized housing diminishes the concept of having a vested interest in one’s home. My rent is $2400/month. I take care of my place, I plant flowers, weed, pressure wash, keep a nice home because I spend a lot of money and want it to always appear nice. The only tenant additions I see at the numerous affordable housing sites in the area are graffiti and litter.

          • OK if you love Shaw so much, do some research, Shaw has always been a diverse community. The public housing development directly across the street has it’s problems as many of the public housing complex around the country. This has been an issue for years….In my opinion the whole program needs to be revamped. The government needs to make it mandatory for recipients of the public housing program who are not employed, to enroll in some kind of job training so that eventually they can cycle out of the system.

          • Well the appropriate measure is to place a hold on all future low-income units until the system is revamped. Let’s not create MORE problems and then try to fix them. Fix the problem first and then implement the solution. It would be RATIONAL and COST EFFECTIVE.

            And, yes, Shaw has always been a diverse community and I believe that my family is enriching it. It has many issues that aggravate me daily; litter, crime, low-scoring elementary schools. The only change I want is improvement and that is why I am vested in my community. I live here to help make it a better place. I LOVE my street and my neighbors. I don’t want to see another Lincoln-Westmoreland. I don’t want more of the crime on 7th, I cannot even walk to 5pm mass at Immaculate Conception in the winter because it is dangerous to walk home in the dark.

  • I remember when I made under $35K a year … I moved out of the city

    • but what about the people who have lived here their whole lives or whose families lived here for generations and are now being priced out by new development and gentrification? Should they move out of the city? reducing crime and making areas of the city more desireable (and thereby creating jobs, etc) is a good thing without a doubt, but we need to not get caught in the fallacy that the low income people living there are inherently part of the problem, and make sure there are still options for them to afford to stay in those areas along with us privileged white slacker yuppies (and yes, I am admittedly one of them).

      • some people, especially younger new comers to the city seem to feel like being able to live in dc is some kind of prize or privilege, forgetting the fact that this is home to people for many generations. that people may be rooted to a place is lost on many. they simple have no mechanism to understand what the flood waters of gentrification sweeping you and your loved ones away feels like.

        • Owning property in the city is the privilege one wins at an auction of the real estate. How can you suggest it’s not with a straight face? It IS!

          I grew up in my neighborhood and I want to move back. A house on my parents’ block sold for $2.2 million and the average house sells for about $1.1 million or so.

          I cannot move into my hometown neighborhood of choice because the houses are selling for $1 million plus. I don’t think anyone should feel bad for me about this and I don’t feel bad for someone making $50k who can’t afford a $500k house.

          You have blinded yourself to reality and want us to believe your fallacy. You are a white slacker yuppie who doesn’t understand your new neighborhood.

          • always with the assumptions neener. did i mention owning property? what fallacy have i deluded myself into seeing? do you really think that everyone understands what it is like to be rooted to a place? i offered a comment, and you insult back. if you care to know, thats rude.

        • i have sympathy for the elder person that bought their house a million years ago and cant pay the property taxes anymore b/c of gentrification, we can have a conversion about changing the tax code for that. but people that rent getting pushed out of their neighborhood is fine. they dont own it, what about the owner’s rights?

          i believe in a social safety net but governments need to look at sustainable solutions to problems and free housing for life is not the solution. if they cant afford to live in the area then too bad. where’s my middle class affording housing in georgetown? neighborhoods change over time, lots of neighborhoods used to be white.

          the argument that whites are taking dc from blacks sounds a lot like the mexicans taking CA, Texas, and AZ from whites and we all call that racism.

          why do poor people want to live in dc anyway? its too expensive, terrible schools, crime ridden, and lots of trash everywhere.

        • Yup. Nobody is helping me buy into my hometown in the suburbs of San Francisco. “Rootedness” can cause people to stay where the jobs aren’t, and fail to work hard to get into or go away to a good college, and fail to get any perspective on the world or their own problems.

          • That’s your opinion….I think that it is nothing wrong in trying to stay where you grew up, although conditions are bad, helping to solve the problem is always better than running away!

        • DITTO!!!!

      • privileged white slacker yuppies? speak for yourself, idiot. i struggle to live here because i want to be here, and just because i have finally made a dent in my debt (the debt i incurred by pretty much supporting myself through high school and college and then the move to dc afterward, btw) doesnt mean that i am privileged and owe it to someone that didnt have the same drive that i did. if youre so worried about those less fortunate than you, take in a homeless person and let them sleep on your couch. and also, send me $20 because im running low and payday isnt for another 2 days 🙁

      • Agreed with the general sentiment, but subsidized housing is the wrong solution for the folks you describe. The homestead tax exemption is the vehicle to help these people. I don’t know what it means to be “priced out of the new development” otherwise. If you own your home and pay taxes on the real estate, you’re protected by the exemption. Maybe not protected enough, but increasing that protection through the tax laws, not through building more subsidized housing, is the way to do that. If you rent, I just don’t see the issue. You’ve NEVER had a right to be a permanent resident there. And renting certainly doesn’t confer a right to dictate the use of the land.

        What this really gets at is cultural ownership of place. People who see a neighborhood as theirs and want to exclude others. This sounds a lot less bad when you’re in the context of less advantaged people, but it’s something no one would tolerate were we discussing plans to build a gated community of hipsters on that parcel. If there’s a right to stay rooted where you started, there’s a corollary implication that anybody else doesn’t have a right to come in and change the place.

  • Wow… lots of steamed up monocles on this thread!

    I’m really surprised how many people are against affordable housing. Not sure everyone’s noticed, but housing and the cost of living in the Washington, DC area is among the highest in the country. Couple this with the unemployment rate in the city having doubled since 2008 and you get an idea of why some families may need a bit of assistance through these rough times.

    Mixed use housing and neighborhoods that are socio-economically is by far the best solution as it doesn’t create “ghettos” of poverty, provides access to services, and ultimately better neighborhoods. Shaw will continue to be socio-economically diverse for the near future. If you live there and aren’t appreciative of this fact, you probably need to move somewhere else–I hear Foxhall Road is lovely.

  • Hope they got a taste of the real world with that rain last night. More on the way today — maybe that’ll get rid of these deadbeats bespoiling our fair city.

  • Name one single instance where what you suggested has worked in all of American history. That’s why I’m against it.

  • OneDC’s involvement with this project has been murky for some time:

    As Anon 8:48 said, 100% affordable housing is public housing by another name. Warehousing the poor is never a solution to poverty. Mixed income development has countless socioeconomic benefits to the neighborhood, the residents, and the longevity of the building itself and should be the end goal for this project.

  • I am really sick of being constantly asked for handouts on the street. I get asked for money at least 2 times a day. I appreciate that there are decent people that fall on hard times but is it too much to ask not to be accosted by drunk or otherwise intoxicated people on the street? Obviously the homeless situation in this city it terrible and nothing is being done to improve it. Franklin, Mcpherson and Farragut square are all unpleasant places because they are overrun by the homeless and beggers.

    • affordable housing isn’t going to solve that homeless problem. cheap housing may at best get families out of shelters. I found out there was government-run housing in my neighborhood because the drug dealers were congregating around it and I tracked down the owner- the city!

      People who beg for money on the street will continue to do so no matter what happens. I knew a homeless guy who could have lived in his brother’s basement forever but would rather be homeless than follow any rules at all.

    • My friend who works with the homeless says 80-90 percent of them homeless have mental health and/or substance abuse problems. A lot of them have more money in the bank than us middle class working stiffs because they are collecting assistance and not using it up. She says if you want to help the homeless don’t give them money, give it to a program that can help, because chances are good it will go directly to drugs or alcohol.
      But my brother says, if I were homeless, I’d want a drink, too.

  • Mixed use housing, workforce housing, all fine. But, the above comment points out that section eight voucher housing is neither. It is a warehouse for the unemployed and a breeding ground for crime. I say, no more section eight or other public housing in Shaw, Petworth or Columbia Heights until Georgetown and Ward 3 have the same amount of low/no-income residents being subsidized to live in those wards. Better for the poor people — they get access to the good schools. Better for the mid-city neighborhood as the poverty concentration reduces crime in our neighborhoods.

  • So 2 years ago the city agreed to affordable housing on the lot, but then “In early June, ONE DC learned that Fenty’s administration and developers backed away from their commitment to develop affordable units for no-to-low income households on Parcel 42.”
    So will it be just market-rate condos now? If so, I think setting up a tent city is an appropriate way for this group to try to achieve its goals. Especially if, going by the track record of the last few years, the condos will include a huge parking garage despite being literally zero blocks from a metro station, and will ignore the First Source hiring provisions for DC residents. That said, I would like to hear the administration’s side of the story on this.

    • is there something wrong with cars now? do tell or great and powerful master of everything what is wrong with a parking garage?

      you crack me up. Do you really take youself seriously or was that a joke, a self-parody of a know-nothing new resident busy-body? because if it was a joke, it was funny, but if you were serious, talk to a therapist.

      • I think DCster’s point was that cars pollute and increase traffic, and aren’t necessary in a location that is literally one block from the metro. Having a parking garage will alleviate parking space issues in the neighborhood, sure, but it will also encourage residents to drive more often.

        While I’m all in support of therapy for people who need it, some people might find your comment a little rude.

  • The concentration of affordable housing in Shaw is high enough…Lincoln-Westmoreland, Gibson Plaza, 1330 7th Street, etc. – time for other parts of the city to open up to it…Dupont, G’town, Palisades…spread it out…

    • +1.

      Warehousing poor people in dedicated low-income housing up and down 7th street helps no-one. Poor people who live there endure crime, drugs and violence right at their doors, while others in the neighborhood deal with it around the corner – plus a lack of amenities and development.

      Shaw has too much affordable housing already, and you can overlay crimes maps and see why: concentrated crime up and down 7th on top of these properties. Just yesterday we had yet another shooting at 1330 7th. No surprise, typical summertime violence in Shaw.

      At the same time, at valuable transportation hubs (shaw/howard metro) where we should have a dense concentration of viable commercial, retail and residential space bustling with productive activity, we have an under utilized, often scary wasteland around Lincoln-Westmoreland. If Parcel 42 (across the street) develops into affordable housing, it will be more of the same: concentrated poverty, more crime and poor use of what should be productive space.

      The answer is to knock down dedicated subsidized housing in Shaw and replace it with dense, mixed use (commercial, retail and residential), mixed income (market rate plus some affordable) developments. And as Shaw Resident suggests, legislate the spreading out affordable housing options across the city.

  • I would fully support development of housing that is within reach of families earning $50,000 a year, though that doesn’t seem to be what this group really has in mind. There are already plenty of high-end luxury condos, and plenty of public and section 8 housing in Columbia Heights. I fully support the subsidized housing (though spreading it out would be better), as it helps maintain the income and racial diversity of the neighborhood, and also has the added benefit of scaring away and keeping out what I would call the “Wholefoods crowd.” However, there is already a ton of public and section 8 housing. There are 14 large section 8 developments all within a few blocks of 14th and Columbia. 14! So the no-to-low income end of the spectrum is relatively well supported, considering. What is worrisome about the trends in DC is that there is no room for middle class families, people who make over what section 8 residents earn but no where near enough to be able to afford a high-end condo. The families who until recently lived in the townhomes and small buildings that have recently been turned into condos.

  • interesting thread. I agree with several previous comments that there is plenty of Section 8 housing in Columbia Heights and Shaw already. I make too much to live in Section 8 housing, but I can’t afford the new luxury apartments, and I’m concerned at the very low number of affordable housing for the middle class (especially those trying to pay off grad school debt!). Unfortunately, after several years of scraping by in group houses in Columbia Heights and Adams Morgan, I have to leave the city. The boyfriend and I are moving in together (yay!) and couldn’t find a decent 1-bedroom between Shaw and Foggy Bottom that was worth the money. We’re moving to Rosslyn next month. Sure, we could have afforded a beautiful place in Atlas or Anacostia, but I thought the crime was bad enough in NW.

  • The lack of empathy on this thread for people struggling to simply have a roof over their head is appalling. DC is not a private playground for entitled, self-righteous yuppies, nor should it be. Based on the vitriol spewed by some of the over-privileged posters, you’d think that not earning a six figure salary is some sort of character flaw.

    • So DC should be an urban hell hole of poverty and crime? or perhaps a just the usual healthy balance between elite playground and atmosphere of decay and fear. This is why I’m moving to manhattan and I am an unentitled, unprivileged member of the middle class, wish me luck!

    • This has nothing to do with empathy and everything to do with opposing a radical socialist group from Miami agitating to build yet another warehouse of poverty in shaw.

      The leader of this protest graduated from Stanford. This is not a grassroots effort, it is a radical far-left land grab. Let’s hope they fail miserably.

    • Sorry. There is your empathy.
      I lived in the poorer part of town in Florida and the deal is you live where you can pay rent. Also this city doesn’t really seem to allow rooming houses-SROs (my hometown did) which is a poor-people housing option. I don’t earn 6 figures, and being born in the country was my privilage. I know I’m lucky with housing as amazingly I apparently was one of the few people who could find cheap rents that weren’t subsidized. I would determine how much I could pay and looked for rents in that range. It seems there are other people running around choosing the neighborhood first and not finding rents in their range. There is more to the city than NW.

  • The problem with constantly trying to move “low to no” income people is when we try to make them home owners. This fails over and over. If you have almost no income you should not be a home owner. I live in a mixed income social experiment building. i am one of the “market rate” owners. Its been a nightmare to get condo fees out of the low income folks. They don’t have any concept of paying taxes, monthly dues etc. They think a landlord will fix the sink. They work in minimum wage jobs but all these do-gooder cluelss housing organizations determined they should be home owners. I can’t wait to get the hell out of this building. Carrying all these other units of poor people is sucking my will to live. Three of the units are already about to go into foreclosure. Guess what, if you make less than $30,000 in this town you are better off renting.
    as for people being displaced. What right does ANYONE have to live in any neigbhorhood of their choice at the price of their choosing. I hate living in the ‘hood. Will DC subsidize me to move to Georgetown? My taxes prop up this city so the dc govt needs to start thinking about my needs.

    • My condolences on your situation. I bought a condo in a similar mixed use experiment here in CH in 1987 and it was 15 years of hell – 70% non-payment of condo fees – water shut off every month for non-payment. The building nearly collapsed.

      My solutions?

      1. Every apartment building in the city with more than 20 units must make 1-5% of the units available to assisted housing.

      2. No apartment building – anywhere – may have more than 5% of units for assisted housing.

      3. Housing assistance agencies must be held responsible for vetting their clients and supervising the rentals. (They currently are not.)

      4. ONE DC devotes all their passion and energy to eliminating the crime that has held more than half this city hostage in poverty for too long, opening up the vast housing stock in NE & SE to the hard-working under 50k. families it claims to advocate for.

  • Piece on NPR this morning about the un-sustainability of generous government spending in Europe.

  • They are occupying vacant land. Setting up a squatter’s camp in a high profile location is a great way to get publicity for your cause. The only concerns I have with it in this case are about sanitation and safety

  • I would also like to point out that anyone who has a mortgage and takes the interest deduction on their taxes
    is, in effect, living in taxpayer-subsidized housing.
    You can’t blame people for wanting to get a piece of that pie.

    • This is a tired argument. Homeowners deduct their interest but they still make a NET contribution into the system. Even with the interst deduction, homeowners contribute thousands of dollars per year in both income taxes and property taxes.

      People in subsidized housing, on the other hand, pay little or no income tax, pay little or no property tax, and are a NET DRAIN on the system.

      • This is a tired old counterpoint. By the same logic, there is no such thing as corporate agriculture subsidies, because ConAgra, Monsanto, Cargill, etc. pay some income tax (maybe!), or at least pay their employees, or however you would like to define “contribute to the system.” These corporate giants are self-reliant American hereos who earn every penny they take in and have pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps, just like you! Pay no attention to that $20 billion item for agriculture corporations or that $131 billion item for homeowners in the federal budget. They are not subsidies, heavens no, because everyone knows they are only subsidies if they are paid to the poors. The end.

        • You completely miss the point. The key word is “NET”. I pay about $8000 in income taxes. Because of my mortgage interest, I end up getting about $4000 of that back, so I’m still paying $4000 into the system.

          The mortgage deduction does not mean that I am getting $4000 of free money. It means that the part of my income that is taxable is reduced, so I’m just getting to keep a little more of my own income. It does not mean they are giving me money. It means that I get to keep a little of the money that was mine to begin with.

          It is in the government’s interest for people to own their homes. That’s why they created this incentive. I end up using this money to improve the home (fix up the house, paint it, plant a garden, make the house look nice overall). This in turn benefits the entire neighborhood.

          People living on subsidized housing on the other hand are net takers. NET is the key word.

          • Maybe you should consider the fact that your particular circumstance may not be typical. Many homeowners (myself included) get tax refunds once all of their deductions (including mortgage interest) are accounted for. That makes them – according to your logic – net drains on the system.

          • No, no, no!

            A tax refund just means that you paid too much throughout the year and are getting some of it back.

            The government was smart to set up tax collection by anticipating how much you would owe at the end of the year and by collecting it throughout the year form each paycheck.

            Generally, people pay too much througout the year than what they are obligated to pay and that’s why you get a refund at the end of the year. The refund is the difference between what you paid and what you are actually obligated to have paid.

            You too make a NET CONTRIBUTION. A refund does not mean the government is giving you free money. It means that you paid too much (and essentially gave the government a 0% interest loan).

          • It means non-homeowners pay more in taxes than they otherwise would have to in order to subsidize your homeownership. To argue that a subsidy isn’t a subsidy unless it exceeds all payments made by the recipient to the government (i.e., the “net” argument) is absurd. If that’s the case then virtally none of the federal government’s subsidies are subsidies. This is just what privileged people tell themselves to convince themselves it’s the well-off who are entitled to money that is taken from other taxpayers and given to them, while the less well off are morally inferior parasites for receiving the same thing.

          • Thank you anon for addressing these ridiculous posts. God forbid that nobody responded to them and the rest of the posters walked away even more misinformed and confused about taxes.

            Marcus Aurelius, I am embarassed for you. The fact that a tax paying citizen (I am presuming you are from your post) has absolutely NO IDEA how taxes work makes me deeply discouraged about the state of education in America.

          • In summary:

            The morally superior people are those who take government housing subsidies even though they are wealthy enough not to need them.

            Morally inferior people are those who take subsidies because they need them.

            The source of their moral inferiority is being poor.


    • I would HAPPILY work with them to help them buy their own houses and gave money to a project that did that run by ACORN.

      I do not want to encourage ANYONE to rent EVER.

  • It’s been said and let’s say it again, there is enough low-income/ subsidized/ semi-subsidized housing in Shaw already thank you. I’m sorry Fenty lied to you. He lied to me. He lied to a lot of people, deal. If you think I’m lying go to the Northwest Co-ops, Gibson, Asbury, 1330 7th, Lincoln Westmoreland I & II and the various individual landlords taking Section 8. Now the 7-11 isn’t housing, neither is the library but if affordable housing went on that corner there would be a heavy concentration of subsized housing at the RI 7th intersection. Concentrated poverty is bad for the residents who live in those buildings, it’s bad for the residents who live near it, and bad for the neighborhood as a whole. Throw in halfway houses that are dotted all over the neighborhood and poorly run social service non-profits we’ve done our part.
    There is affordable housing in the city, just not where the cool people hang out. There are some cute bungelows in NE DC and all of SE isn’t the same.

    • Mari, there’s been a marked decline in the availability of affordable housing in DC for the past decade, to the point where there are now 25,000 names on DC’s waiting list for affordable housing.

      As for this and many other comments: a building reserved for families making $25-50k a year is ‘concentrated poverty’? Half the people in the city fall in that bracket. It’s hard to live in the city at that level; withdrawing support like this actually makes poverty worse.

      • Greg:

        I understand your point, but the problem is not housing for working people with low incomes, it is with subsidized housing for people who do not pay anything for the housing and do not work at all. The income limitation you cite is a maximum income. In many (and from what I’ve observed most) cases the tenants’ only contribution is in the form of a Section 8 housing voucher, and they are unemployed and receiving other forms of public assistance.

        • Most “no-income” folks who live on public assistance are elderly or disabled. Most of the ONE DC members who I’ve met are working individuals who participate in Tent City by rotating in between their shifts at work. Most of the people who live in this city are struggling to live in this city.

          Reading all of the generalizations made about ‘those people’ in the comments of this blog, written by people who often sound either ignorant or in denial of their own considerable privilege, I’m struck by how these misconceptions are simultaneously lazy and self-serving.

          • Greg:

            I’m not sure whether your comment is addressed to me or to other commenters. If it is addressed to me, you didn’t address the issue I raised — providing free housing is different than providing housing to working people at low cost. I’m sympathetic to your point of view but believe that providing free housing has negative social costs that outweight the benefits.

  • um, how backwards. I’m sorry if I don’t think people of color should be your slaves dependent solely on the handouts from \the man.\ Why do you want them living in poverty? Ask yourself why you want that? then you’ll understand why I don’t want that.

  • uhhh… you compare apples and oranges and wonder why people ignore that argument?

    By your definition having one drink and driving and having 7 drinks and driving wouldn’t make a difference because it’s ALL drinking.

    I say that a net adult (over 18) contributor to the system is a better person ethically and morally than a net taker. What happened to you as a minor is not your doing, so you don’t have to feel guilty for getting a nice public school.

    If you make $150k per year and get $5000 off your taxes from the mortgage deduction, which was roughly what I got that first year, then that’s one effect. Of course I spent all that money on home repairs, every cent, and when I look at my newest repair which will be roughly $80,000 that will cover my tax refund for the next 20 years. A well-repaired home keeps the infrastructure in-place.

    • So is your whole point:

      A) That you have convinced yourself that you are morally superior? (In which case, thanks for sharing, but who cares?)


      B) That you think that no low-income adult should receive any assistance or benefit (food stamps, homeless shelter assistance, police protection, use of the roads, etc) from the government? (In which case, why does Sarah Palin call herself a “neener” on PoP?)

  • Of course DC doesn’t need more affordable housing. I mean, why don’t these people just move into Park Place on Georgia Avenue? A 1 BR is only $1800. Anyone with a janitor job can afford that And they still get to live within earshot of gunshots every week.

  • Get used to more and more tent cities as the economy gets worse and worse. We’re not that far way for Hooverville conditions.

  • This is BS.. Good in theory to get poor people to live in nicer neighborhood, but a failure when applied.

    If one wants a certain thing, one needs to work for it, whether it is in iPhone or a home in a nicer neighborhood.

    If you give one something without making them work hard for it, it just wont motivate them to ever work hard. These people hate trust fund babies that everything to them is given and they dont have to work for it, so how can they justify the govt. just giving them cheaper homes.

    2nd,if the govt. even ends up giving them cheaper housing. How will they maintain it? It will just end up becoming another liability for the city.

    The protestors need to find cheaper housing, whether they go to NE, SE, PG County or even Detroit to find it, this shoulnt be the burden on other tax payers.

    Being a DC resident one gets many advantages as it is, UDC is cheap as heck and DC residents can also go to any other state school and pay instate tuition. Yet if these people dont try to do any better for themselves, they probably deserve to live in tents.

    • Why is it that when we use the words poor people, we always think of those who are not employed. Sorry Folks I work 5 days a week -37 1/2 hours per week and my salary is below $30,000.00. I live in subsudized housing and I am greatful for that. I was two children in the inner city and they both graduated from high school, one from Howard University, and now that I am at retirement age, I am more in need of subsidy then when I was raising 2 children alone.(due to divorce)Does that make me the horrible individual mentioned above–NO and most of us in subsidized housing are not looking for a hand out, just some help from our tax paying dollars. Sure, there have been many killings in Shaw, but the abortion clinics are full of fatalities, how do you determine which death is ok? My final thought to the gentleman above is–God Bless you in Jesus Name.

      • Correction.

        I thought I should correct my typo’s so that poor people wont’t get the reputation of not being able to spell or write.

        Why is it that when we use the words poor people, we always think of those who are not employed. Sorry Folks I work 5 days a week -37 1/2 hours per week and my salary is below $30,000.00. I live in subsidized housing and I am greatful for that. I raised two children in the inner city and they both graduated from high school, one from Howard University, and now that I am at retirement age, I am more in need of subsidy then when I was raising 2 children alone.(due to divorce)Does that make me the horrible individual mentioned above–NO and most of us in subsidized housing are not looking for a hand out, just some help from our tax paying dollars. Sure, there have been many killings in Shaw, but the abortion clinics are full of fatalities, how do you determine which death is ok? My final thought to the gentleman above is–God Bless you in Jesus Name

  • UM… has anyone else noticed how rich most of the people in the fancy tents are?? this a perfect example of Georgetown and Jack Evans wanting to put affordable housing as far away from themselves as possible. One little blip of Shaw is in Ward 2 so we are their dumping ground. There is plenty of affordable housing here. I can count 6 low-income projects within a few blocks of my house. If people who will live in the new development want to protest fine. But I’m tired of rich people protesting to be sure the low-income housing isn’t near them.

  • The hatred and total lack of empathy for poor people in these comments is baffling. I don’t understand why people who hate others so much would choose to live in an urban environment.

  • no the question is why would poor people choose to live in such an expensive environment. And beleive me I have worked in social services and I would argue that at least 50% of people in public housing wouldn’t leave it if it meant they had to get real jobs or practice birth control. I think the question people have is why poor people are entitled to live wherever they want but people with any real income (Im not talking 6 figures either) have to make actual housing choices and work to upgrade? we need to break up these neigborhoods! All these poor people living together for decades hsa created entrenched gangs and absolutely no role models. How many pregnant teens need to hang out outside on 14th street to realize public housing is a totally failed policy? Blame CM Graham for some of this too. he never met a section 8 property he wouldnt support. too bad we have no viable alternatives to him

  • I am sure there are plenty of other options than just this particular site in DC. The US is a big country. A lot of “nice to have” improvements were in the works all around DC before the economy feel apart, this might just be another victim.

  • I’ve been expecting the Brooklynization of NE for several years now, as I see prices soar throughout NW.

  • i hope dc politicians are reading this comments. the new crop of urban liberals in dc do not want anymore public housing. those politicians that support expansion of public housing will face difficulty at the polls.

    • Luckily there are more of us than there are of you “new urban” people. The PoP blog is hardly a barometer for how the majority of voters feel about things.

      • and most of us are hardly extreme in our views. very few people want 0% affordable housing. and very few want all developments to include some.

      • Seriously- views on social issues like gay marriage aside, this blog seems to bring out the Glenn Beck / Sarah Palin crowd out of the woodwork- who knew there were so many in DC?

  • Why don’t they push for that abandoned apartment building a couple blocks away to be renovated? Or the vacant building at Seaton and N Capitol?

    With all the vacant buildings in this city its crazy that 1. they’re not being utilized and 2. that anyone would push for a brand new building, which is only going to cost more and take longer

  • Oh, great. The new library will be their bathroom, free internet and air conditioned real home.

  • All those eager activitists braving the elements to stand up for what they believe in makes me tired. Yawn.

    I think I’ll go to a cafe and tweet my outrage. That’ll change the world.

  • I don’t understand why White people have so much hate about low income people… is so sad. just move back to Virginia or Maryland…why stay somewhere u are not happy.

    • I don’t understand why poor people HAVE to live in DC. Just move to Virginia or Maryland… why stay somewhere u cannot afford.

      • They were here first. And for many, many years. That should count for something.

        • what do you think it should count for?

          to me, it gives me empathy for the situation. deep empathy.
          i dont think that translates to having special consideration legally speaking though.

        • Who was here first? Who were those lovely pre 1900’s rowhomes built for? How about the American Indians? That should count for something.

    • It’s not just white people. I know plenty of blacks and hispanics who really dislike welfare dependents and food stamp collectors.

  • In summary:

    The morally superior people are those who take government housing subsidies even though they are wealthy enough not to need them.

    Morally inferior people are those who take subsidies because they need them.

    The source of their moral inferiority is being poor.


  • When people pay thousands per month in rent, it makes them angry that other people are using taxes to live next door to them for free.

    It’s a nuanced and complicated issue, but it’s not hard to understand why public housing makes people more angry than any other type of public assistance.

    The people in the public housing across the street from me have nicer TVs than I do.

  • No, Sarah, you dolt. A payment or discharge of a debt by the government to defray the otherwise private costs of a private actor is only a subsidy if the beneficiary is poor, black, or brown. If it benefits a white landowner, it’s not a subsidy at all. In that case it is called a Token Gift of Appreciation on Behalf of all Americans Just for Being so Self-reliant and Awesome. Look it up, it’s in the Constitution. (Sobs.)

  • All’s I’m sayin’ is… plenty of affordable houses in Kentucky. My parents emmigrated from a poor situation and all they could afford was Kentucky. Are they devastated that they had to uproot from their community and become minorities? Doesn’t matter. All they could afford was Kentucky.

  • in my opinion, legally, morally and ethically we collectively have a responsibility to provide housing for folks who cannot, and yes, for those who will not, afford it on their own. A roof over your head should be a fundamental right. That right should not have to come with a deportation condition.

  • why do people who “WILL NOT” provide a roof over their head have a right to have housing provided by me? I agree that the elderly and the disabled should be cared for…but the teenage baby mamas and their gun toting daddies, not at all. We need a five year limit for all non elderly/disabled people in public housing. that would 1) create incentive to better ones life and 2) open up more transitional housing for the supposed 25,000 on a waiting list. What is lost in this entire dicussion is that at no point does any govt agency associated with housing ever discuss how to actually move people out of subsidized housing and into the private market. All national housing policies are based on outdated racial stereotypes which then trickle down to local non-profits (manna etc) which is that urban blacks will never be able to compete in the market (jobs or housing) and will never ever be able to in the future. But if someone actually acknowledged this then white liberal do gooders would have to do something else and not be able to alleviate their white guilt.

  • How long before we’re rioting like Athens 2010

    with these scatter brained collectivists with a huge false sense of entitlement demanding something for nothing…

    -Demanding a life by government ration by elitist central planning social engineers that do nothing but spread the misery by taking from those that produce, contribute and provide for themselves and their own, to give to those that don’t and live a privileged life of perpetual dependency.

  • Hi guys, we all want to live next to a downtown metro stop within walking distance of the white house. For those that live near the Shaw metro stop, there are MORE subsidized housing options than just about anywhere in the city. WE HAVE ENOUGH. If you turn shaw into an engineered ghetto (i mean that in the old world sense of warehousing ethnically homogenous poor in one area) then it’s going to be even more of a bad deal than it already is.

    Subsidized Housing Projects within a FEW blocks (0-4) of parcel 42:
    LINCOLN WESTMORELAND I – 1730 7TH ST NW (Huge, within a block)
    LINCOLN WESTMORELAND II – 1711 8TH ST NW (Huge, within a block)
    FOSTER HOUSE – 801 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW (1 block away)

    So STFU about ‘our moral obligation’ to provide affordable housing. If you had any stake in the neighborhood or understanding at all, you would know we have more than met that obligation in Shaw.

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